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Balancing the Scales: Best Practices When Dealing With Self-Represented Litigants
What area(s) of law does this episode consider? | Family law; working with self represented litigants. |
Why is this topic relevant? | Dealing with self-represented litigants can be a difficult task for many practitioners. Understanding how to navigate this dynamic is a vitally important skill for any practitioner whose day-to-day work involves advocacy. |
What legislation is considered in this episode? | Family Law Act 1975 (Cth) |
What cases are considered in this episode? | Tomasevic v Travaglini & Anor [2007] VSC 337
Johnson v Johnson (1997) 139 FLR 384
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What are the main points? |
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What are the practical takeaways? |
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Show notes | Law Council of Australia, ‘Addressing the Legal Needs of the Missing Middle’, November 2021 |
DT = David Turner; CI = Chauntelle Ingenito
00:00:00 | DT: | Hello and welcome to Hearsay the Legal Podcast, a CPD podcast that allows Australian lawyers to earn their CPD points on the go and at a time that suits them. I’m your host, David Turner. Hearsay the Legal Podcast is proudly supported by Lext Australia. Lext’s mission is to improve user experiences in the law and legal services, and Hearsay the Legal Podcast is how we’re improving the experience of CPD. Dealing with self represented litigants can be a difficult task for many legal practitioners and understanding how to navigate a set of proceedings involving a self represented litigant is a vitally important skill for any practitioner whose day to day work involves advocacy, especially in family law, in the possessions list, in real property, the list really just goes on. Now, joining us today to shed some light on this topic is Chauntelle Ingenito. Chauntelle is a barrister at Chalfont Chambers in Sydney, and she’s also the co-host of Family Law 101, which is an education platform that hosts workshops and webinars for self represented litigants in family law. Now, Chauntelle last appeared on Hearsay in season three of the podcast, on the topic of distribution of property in family law proceedings, and while family law makes up a large part of her practice, she also works in care and protection, domestic violence, and criminal law matters. Chauntelle, welcome back! |
00:01:28 | CI: | Thank you so much for having me today. |
00:01:29 | DT: | How have you been? |
00:01:30 | CI: | Good. It’s been a busy year. It’s been really, really busy, in family law as all the media will tell you about. |
00:01:35 | DT: | Yes. |
00:01:36 | CI: | We’ve got the changes to the family law legislation coming in on Monday. |
00:01:39 | DT: | Yeah, the 6th. |
00:01:40 | CI: | Yes. On the 6th, that’s right, and it’s going to shake up the way that family law parenting proceedings run going forward. At the same time that Parliament’s considering changes to the financial side of family law proceedings as well,l and changing the legislation there. Making it actually a lot easier for practitioners to understand family law, and then even self represented litigants who are reading the legislation, it’ll really clarify property proceedings once those changes come in. I think they’re in their second reading speech now, really trying to fine tune property proceedings and making it easier for people to be able to navigate the family law system. So it’s some very exciting times in family law. |
00:02:12 | DT: | Well, that’s an optimistic look at a whole range of changes coming to your area because I was going to say, you family lawyers don’t have to deal with all of these sweeping changes to your area much, do you? |
00:02:21 | CI: | No, it’s pretty rare. I mean, the last changes were in 2006, to the legislation. That was when shared parental responsibility or equal shared parental responsibility first came in. With the Howard government, it completely changed the way that families were operating. It completely changed the way that we look at family and family dynamics, gave a statutory pathway with how to look at parenting dynamics in families and now that’s completely been scrapped. So for a lot of the practitioners who were in practice pre 2006, they’re saying it’s going back to how we grew up or how we learnt it. For the practitioners like me who were admitted much later than that, it’s completely changed the way that we look at family law, we approach our family law matters, how we advise our clients. It’s a complete change of mentality. Something that I’m looking forward to in some ways. It’s going to make it a lot harder for some particular families in particular cases, but I am excited to say that we are protecting children and that’s really what the forefront of our thoughts are now, instead of this is what the legislation requires us to consider when advising our clients. So I’m trying to be optimistic about it because if I’m not optimistic, what else am I going to be doing? |
00:03:19 | DT: | Well, you don’t really have a choice whether you choose to go along with the changes. So it’s the right mindset to bring to it, and you’re right, it’s great that that legislation might be a little more readable, more comprehensible to a self represented litigant which is really what we’re talking about today. So, before we talk about the self represented litigant and the difficulties they face, and yes, the difficulties that practitioners face dealing with them… Although as an aside, I feel like we sometimes overstate that and think, “Oh, well, it was me. I have to deal with this difficult procedural issue because of a self represented litigant.” When we know that it’s the litigant themselves who’s probably suffering far more than us… Talk to me about Family Law 101, this project that you have to assist self represented litigants. |
00:04:00 | CI: | Absolutely. So, about two years ago now, maybe a little bit longer just after I joined the New South Wales Bar, I saw Facebook had lots and lots of groups for people who were going through Family Court proceedings and they’ve got various names, “Family Court dads, Family Court this, Family Court that”, and there was one that was called “Family Law 101” and I thought that’s pretty interesting, I’ll have a look at it. And what it was, was a Facebook group where you could join and you could post questions and people would answer them. It was very basic at that stage, two and a half years ago, and the convener of the page at the time, a solicitor named Leela Fisher from Queensland, and I got talking about what she was doing, and I thought it was a fantastic opportunity to help self represented persons with, basic family law matters. It wasn’t specific advice on their matter, but sometimes it would be, “what form do I use to bring this kind of application”, or “what are the rules about this particular issue?” And so we first then did a workshop end of 2022 about affidavit drafting. Because what we find with self represented litigants is they write their affidavits… it’s not evidence, it’s submissions, it is difficult to understand, it’s difficult to comprehend, it goes into matters that are not relevant, it doesn’t address the orders that they’re seeking, and even being on the other side of it, you feel a bit sorry for them and think, you probably actually had a really good case to run, but you’re really let down by your affidavit. And particularly at the interim hearing stage of family law matters, it’s really important that your evidence is really clear. So we ran a four hour workshop and it included how to draft an affidavit and what affidavits were, and the feedback we got was fantastic. We had people saying, “it’s made it so much easier for me to actually understand what I’m meant to put in my evidence”. Thereafter we started to run other workshops, and they were either paid or not paid. The ones that require payment, we donate our funds to charities for children. So we’ve currently worked with Make-A-Wish and some other kids foundations including the To Be Loved Foundation. And the workshops go from anything to how to run an interim hearing, that was our biggest one I guess you could say because it really went down into nitty gritties of what it’s like to run an interim hearing, which most self represented persons have ever seen before. We did a mock interim hearing between myself and another practitioner. We actually had a former judge as well, be the judge in that. So, yeah, it was done over the evening. So kids are in bed, they could sit there and watch it. And we’ve done other workshops in relation to the Family Court sphere, how matters progress, how to be cross examined, which is a really struggling thing because people who haven’t got lawyers don’t know what examination is like. It’s probably their first time in court, so they’ve got no idea. So we’re trying to change the narrative as well about how to be a litigant in the courts. And then even for people who have got lawyers involved, how to help your own case, how to reduce legal fees, and how to instruct your lawyer to get the best outcome that you can. So instead of sending 40 emails a day with single questions, how to organize yourself to make it easier for you and to make it cheaper for you if you are instructing lawyers. So, it’s on Facebook. It’s called Family Law 101. It’s a group that you can just join. All of our questions are posted anonymously to protect people in relation to section 121 of the Act, which is you can’t publish any information about proceedings. And we’re very strict on the way that you can ask questions. You’ve got to indicate where you are on the roadmap and it has to be really a procedural question, not something like, my kids are with me three nights a week, what’s an appropriate time frame? As an example of something like that. It’s really mostly procedural questions about “how many pages can my affidavit be”, “how many annexes can I have”, or “what form do I use”, or “I’m coming up to trial and there’s an issue with the report, how can I address this and how can I write to the other side about that?” TIP: So Chauntelle just mentioned section 121 of the Family Law Act 1975 (Cth). This section imposes restrictions on the publication of court proceedings or details about court proceedings. It makes it an indictable offence to publish proceedings or images that identify parties, witnesses or others involved in Family Court proceedings, and this prohibition extends to both print and electronic publications as you would expect. Now, this provision is designed to protect the privacy of the parties involved in family law cases, especially children, but there are exceptions to the rule under section 121. For example, the law allows the publication of proceedings for the purposes of the administration of justice, reporting on cases for example, and it’s important to note that proceedings for an offence under section 121, like most indictable offence provisions, can only be initiated by the Director of Public Prosecutions or by a private person with their consent. So really trying to get people to make it easier as self represented litigants, but also it helps lawyers on the other side because if the self represented litigant is able to manage their matter better, it’s easier for a lawyer to then deal with them. |
00:08:21 | DT: | Yeah, absolutely. These aren’t things that affect, fundamentally, the prospects of the case that’s underlying the matter. This is about the smooth and efficient running of the proceedings, right? |
00:08:30 | CI: | Yeah. The idea is to make it so that it helps judges at the end of the day. Now, we know that the Family Courts are one of the most backlogged courts that there are. The Family Courts are also one of the biggest courts where you find self represented litigants. So what we’re trying to do is make it easier for judges to manage their lists, to make it easier for lawyers to manage with self represented litigants. You’re not getting 15 affidavits filed for nothing. You’re not getting 1200 emails a day from a self represented litigant. We’re really trying to make it streamlined. So it’s saving everybody costs. But then when people are presenting their applications to the court as well, you don’t have judges getting frustrated by… you’ve brought an application that’s completely incompetent, you’ve wasted now two hours of the court’s time, when there are other matters that are completely competent that should be running ahead of you. So we’re really trying to with what we’re doing, make it easier for judges as well. So therefore, the backlog will be cleared up as well, and we’ll get people in and out, or hopefully, keep them out of the system a lot easier as well. |
00:09:19 | DT: | Yeah, it’s a fantastic project. I’m really glad someone’s doing it. Why do some litigants choose to self represent? I suppose one of the most obvious ones that probably comes to mind for a lot of people that isn’t necessarily always the case, is that it’s not a choice. They’re impecunious and maybe can’t afford representation, but are there other reasons? |
00:09:37 | CI: | Sometimes people think that they know better, they may or may not do so, and nine times out of 10, I’d say it probably is costs. Now not going to pretend that family lawyers are cheap because they’re not. It might not admit that they’re impecunious, but it may be the case that they have 1,000 to deal with on a week, some that goes to school fees, some that goes to other expenses, and they can’t divert what they would say is funds for their own children to paying for lawyers to do what they would think they could do otherwise. And I think that’s probably the biggest thing is that family lawyers are really expensive and we can’t pretend that they’re not. Lawyers in general are really expensive as well, and sometimes it’s also a timing factor that they don’t have time to come out of their day and go and see a lawyer and get that advice because they’ve got their own care responsibilities or other working responsibilities, and while lawyers are changing the way that they run matters and they’re working flexible hours and things like that, when we’re talking about particularly family law matters and parenting matters particularly, you’re not getting your kids in bed till eight o’clock at night. When are you going to see a lawyer thereafter? It’s pretty rare that you’re going to find lawyers who jump online at 8 o’clock to have a meeting with you, or be in the office for a meeting, or do a Zoom meeting even. So sometimes it’s just a matter of they just don’t have the time to go and speak to lawyers, they’d rather just try and do it themselves. That’s really why family law 101 exists, is to help people who just can’t get out and get that legal advice about even basic procedural stuff. Duty lawyers are great, they’re around, but their hours as well are only nine to five. So even if you want to get basic information, they’re not available. Community legal centers, yes they have late afternoon or late evening times that you can go and see somebody in a community legal center even. But even then, if you’ve got care of kids, you can’t be dragging your kids along to go and see a community legal center. Also, you shouldn’t be bringing your kids along to your legal meetings. So, it becomes really… particularly for families that haven’t got the family support or haven’t got anybody else to care for the kids and they have to work as well… It becomes really a time constraint as well. |
00:11:20 | DT: | Yeah, and I suppose also with community legal centres as well, they do fantastic work, but they may not have the resources to run a matter to finality. They’re usually more involved in legal information and education in the same way Family Law 101 is. |
00:11:31 | CI: | Exactly right. |
00:11:32 | DT: | Shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone listening. I think some of the research done by the Productivity Commission and the Law Council of Australia suggests that as much as 85% of demand for legal services in Australia is unmet by a lawyer, and that is because of cost, but it’s also because it’s stressful and difficult and confusing and hard to get legal advice. So it shouldn’t surprise us that this trickles through into our court system. TIP: In November 2021, the Law Council of Australia released a position paper that noted a strong correlation between families experiencing disadvantage or have complex needs, and those who require the courts as a form of dispute resolution to solve their legal disputes. The paper says that the costs of accessing the underfunded and resource strained family law system can be prohibitive for families who can’t afford private legal representation but who don’t qualify for a grant of legal aid either, and this naturally results in an increase in self represented litigants who experience family law related challenges. It explains why Chauntelle sees so many self represented litigants in the Family Court. We’ll leave a link to that report in the show notes if you want to read it. Now, we’re talking about self represented litigants from the perspective of the family law system and the Family Court, because the great work that you’re doing with Family Law 101 is focused on that area. But there are self represented litigants in just about every court in New South Wales and in the Commonwealth. I know from my own experience as a baby lawyer, I did a lot of work in the possessions list in the Supreme Court of New South Wales which deals with mortgage enforcement. I suppose as you’d naturally expect for people facing financial difficulty, there was a lot of self representation there. You see it in the real property list. You see it in some of the lower courts in the district court, sometimes you see actions brought by self represented litigants who believe that a tort has been inflicted against them. That can be especially challenging from a procedural perspective. So what are some of the areas that you’ve seen in your practice, self represented litigants are appearing and what are the challenges that they’re facing in these different areas? |
00:13:26 | CI: | I’ve seen self represented litigants, I think, in every court sphere. I’ve done a lot of work with the New Wales Bar Association’s duty barrister scheme and that is drawn to self represented litigants and how to conduct their proceedings on that day. That included things like defamations list in the district court where you have self represented litigants, usually plaintiffs, who are seeking advice about how to properly structure their proceedings, or how to properly issue a concerns notice. Because that’s very specialized information that I don’t even know how to do properly, let alone a self represented litigant who doesn’t know what the defamation act is and what’s required in a concerns notice. And you see it a lot in the small claims division where legal costs are actually capped. So you’re not going to spend $10,000 on a lawyer to get a $5,000 claim in which only $1,500 of that is recoverable. |
00:14:09 | DT: | Yeah. |
00:14:10 | CI: | So you’re seeing that in a lot of those areas where the cost benefit analysis of getting legal representation versus the cost of the litigation or the benefit that you might derive, you’re seeing a lot of self represented litigants in those areas. In the criminal courts and the local court, most people are self represented because again, the cost of having a lawyer to do whatever it might be, isn’t worth it. So they go and see the lawyers at Legal Aid, they see the duty solicitors and they see the duty barristers to get some advice about the likelihoods of their action or their defence being successful. And they get that quick advice and then they can go off and run their matter as they need to, or they can plead guilty if necessary. So you find a lot of self represented litigants in the local courts in both crime and in civil, mostly cost benefit analysis. And then you see them in other areas such as in employment law, where again, they don’t have the funds to go up against their employer. So they’re going through the Fair Work channels, and there is a lot of support for self represented persons through those channels, and they’re seeing it there. And then lastly, NCAT. So NCAT, New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal, there are some areas where you need to seek leave to have representation assist you there. And so sometimes it’s more difficult than not just to run it yourself, particularly tenancy issues or strata issues you need to seek leave to have legal representation and often you’re arguing about $3,000. You’re not going to spend that $3,000 on getting a lawyer if you can just try and argue it yourself. And the members at NCAT are very helpful with self represented litigants and helping them through the pathways and there’s heaps of publications about what the court is and how to manage the court or the tribunal system as well. |
00:15:35 | DT: | Your mileage as a self represented litigant varies substantially in those different courts and tribunals, right? I suppose NCAT and the Small Claims Division are good examples of forums that are well adapted to people representing themselves because it does make sense from a cost benefit analysis perspective. It makes sense for the good running of those courts and tribunals. The rules of evidence are very loosely applied, if applied at all. There’s no strict pleading rules, it’s relatively straightforward to deal with as a self represented litigant and the challenges that they might face there might be more to do with the skill or process of advocacy at a final hearing, maybe some of the procedural stuff and expectations around the outcome of their case. What I saw a lot in the Supreme Court or in the District Court with self represented litigants was challenges with procedural matters, with the interlocutory applications, with understanding the difference between a directions hearing and a final hearing, and because those processes were really engineered for legally trained users, right? They were designed for legal professionals coming in and dealing with the procedural aspects of those courts every day. As we were talking about just before we started recording, family law is a really interesting area in that you’re going a bit deeper into the proceedings than you might see in the Supreme Court or the District Court. I said just before we started the episode, I often saw that the experiences of a self represented litigant in the Supreme Court, for example, was usually a procedural path to some interlocutory application that resolved everything. It was either a strikeout application if the self represented litigant had a defense that was untenable, a strikeout application if they had a claim that was untenable, a summary judgment application in the same situation or a default judgment application where nothing was happening procedurally and there was a lot of “give me more time, give me more time”. But in the Family Court, you don’t really have that situation, do you? Because you can’t strike out someone’s application to share in the matrimonial asset pool. You can’t strike out someone’s application to spend some time with or care for their children. So I guess you naturally have a forum where self represented litigants have to grapple with, how do I draft an affidavit? How do I represent myself at a final hearing? How do I cross examine someone or be cross examined? So, have you noticed that the family law context is unique in that way, that self represented litigants have greater challenges or more substantive challenges than the procedural aspects? |
00:18:01 | CI: | Absolutely. In family law there are probably two areas where you could actually have an application to strike out someone’s application, and that’s usually when there’s a threshold issue. So in parenting, it’s whether or not there’s been a change in circumstances since previous orders have been made. That’s a threshold issue. And in property times it’s either, have you been divorced too long or separated too long in which your application, you’ve breached the limitation period. So should your application be struck out? And they’re pretty rare situations because usually the writing’s on the wall as to whether or not somebody should pursue that matter. But in family law, there is a very specified pathway that the court has created to help with efficiency but also to get things moving in different ways than you probably see in your standard other courts. Your first application or your first court date is usually a procedural date, and then your next one is about interim orders, if interim orders are sought, and usually interim orders are sought when someone’s not spending time with their kids, or you need to get some matrimonial assets sold or retained because there are issues in relation to those particular assets. And nine times out of ten, people who are self represented will have to run those themselves. You can go and speak to the duty lawyers on the day through the legal aid system, and have a chat with them. But usually, if you’re getting to the interim hearing stage, you’re having to run your application yourself and the court is very strict with its rules in relation to affidavit lengths and annexure styles and how long you have to make your submissions. And they’ve made that very, very clear to make it that it’s a much more efficient system. But when it gets to a final trial the family law system, it’s a little bit different. It’s different to how you might find things in other courts. So as an example, if you’re a self represented person and you’re a defendant in an AVO proceeding that has attached criminal charges, you 9 times out of 10 will not be allowed to cross examine the victim and you’ll have a registrar who just reads your questions out for you. So It is you still acting for yourself, but somebody else just asks the questions. In the family law sphere, it’s very different. If you get all the way to a final trial, there are domestic violence allegations in your matter, and it doesn’t matter if it’s property or parenting, but if there are allegations of domestic violence, you are prohibited from cross examining the victim and or the perpetrator, or the alleged perpetrator, and you do get appointed a solicitor and barrister through Legal Aid to act for you on your final trial. So we’re finding that very few self represented litigants are actually required to run their final trials themselves because of that protection for victims and protection against perpetrators in the system and enacted in the Act really puts a stop to it. So it’s very, very few matters that if they’re in the family law sphere, They are parenting and or property, doesn’t matter if it’s either or and there are no allegations of domestic violence. Usually they’re settled before they get to a trial. So it’s very, very few matters that get to a final trial and run a final trial with a self represented person that doesn’t have legal representation. It’s pretty rare. |
00:20:34 | DT: | That must be a challenge for those lawyers appointed so late. I think back to my time at the Bar and how difficult it was when a matter in which the parties were legally represented was dropped on your desk a week before trial and all of the things that you wish you could have done that you can’t do now. Have you ever been in that position of being appointed to act for a self represented at short notice? |
00:20:55 | CI: | I have, usually it’s within six weeks of trial starting is when the solicitor will receive their grant of aid, then they need to find counsel who’s available. And usually most counsel aren’t available six weeks, four weeks, or two weeks out from trial. But it does happen that two weeks before trial the grant is given and then the solicitor has to go out and find counsel to appear. The problem though, particularly as lawyers when that’s the situation, is nine times out of ten the application has been drafted. Evidence has already been filed, subpoenas have been issued. You’re left with an application that either the evidence doesn’t give rise to that application being successful, the subpoena material doesn’t give rise to that application being successful, often the applications are drafted or the orders that are being sought are far far away with what the court would ever even grant, and you’ve got to, as a practitioner, look at it and say, can I actually properly run this application based on what’s being sought? Now, I have had situations where I’ve given certain advice and said this application is going to fail. You need to think about settlement and often settlement does occur once a lawyer is appointed. You can give that reality check to the client and say, look, I know this is what you’ve been seeking, but this is what the court’s likely to do. How about we try and find you a really nice way to get what you want in a different way, or how about we try and mend your application to make it something that the court can actually even grant. Sometimes what the self represented persons are seeking are things that the court can’t even do. They don’t have the power to do, or there hasn’t been appropriate procedural fairness to do it. But sometimes, unfortunately, the way that the self represented litigant has conducted their matter throughout the proceedings and the case that they have run… You look at it and you go, this is a completely incompetent application, or it’s an application that no court would ever give, but they’ve nailed their colours to the mast and you just have to run with it. Judges, I have found are generally, much more lenient with practitioners who are appointed on it’s called the 102NA scheme, or on the self represented litigant scheme and our understanding when questions that are asked or cross examination that occurs might not be as kosher as what it might otherwise be. As barristers though, and particularly in New South Wales, I think we have a very big ethical obligation to not ask embarrassing or inappropriate questions. And often the judges will know if you’re asking something that is completely left field, you’re doing so on instructions, and they’ll just refuse the question anyway so they will manage that themselves. I have had a situation where I was asked to ask various questions that I thought were completely irrelevant and inappropriate and I refused to do so and the client fired us and said I’d rather just not cross examine and have that as part of my issues, because I really wanted these questions asked, and it was questions about whether or not someone had breast augmentation surgery. Not relevant to the proceedings whatsoever, not relevant. It was a parenting matter. Could not be relevant even if they tried. |
00:23:30 | DT: | It’s hard to conceive of the situation in which that might be relevant, but yeah. |
00:23:33 | CI: | Absolutely, and it’s one of those situations where I just tell the client, “I cannot ask that question”. It’s a breach of my ethical obligations, and I’m not going to ask questions that I just know that are completely inappropriate. I know that some barristers will just ask the questions and say “I’m instructed to ask this question of you” and then just let the judge deal with it and refuse the question. But I think as barristers, we have a bit more of an obligation to not just ask any question under the sun because we’re instructed to do so. And that’s where self represented persons get very, very upset because they say, “well, I was trying self represent, it’s not my fault that I can’t self represent, it’s this legislation that’s prohibited me from doing so. I want to ask the questions that I want to ask and it’s my right to do so.” And it’s a very, very fine balance at the court and particularly the judges have to deal with. I know you want your day in court, I know you want to ask all these questions, but they have to be relevant anyway. So some barristers take the view, I’ll ask the question, let the judge refuse it, and then others will say, I’m just not going to ask those questions that are completely inappropriate. |
00:24:21 | DT: | Yeah, and look, all of us barristers or solicitors have an obligation to not be the mere mouthpiece of our clients, to exercise our own forensic judgment and to put the administration of justice before all else. But what about your responsibilities to a self represented litigant when you’re on the other side of them? This is an interesting situation. I speak to lawyers about their experiences with self represented litigants and they find it frustrating. They find it frustrating banging their head against a brick wall. Nothing seems to get through, ad as I said at the top of the episode, it is easy to focus on our own plight, how difficult it is to be faced with this infuriating, frustrating, slow, inefficient process dealing with this person. But what are our responsibilities towards that litigant or at least towards the court to assist in moving things along more smoothly? |
00:25:08 | CI: | I have a different view from what a lot of other lawyers, particularly family lawyers have. I think that as lawyers, we have a responsibility to ensure the efficient processes in the court. So things like if they don’t have a copy of a document, provide them with your copy. If they haven’t printed out a document and you’ve got four copies sitting on the bar table, just hand them one instead of being, well, you didn’t have one, so I’m going to make your life really difficult with the judge. And I’ve found that when I’m opposing self represented litigants, and I, do quite a lot, particularly in interim proceedings, they’re usually a self represented person, and usually their applications and the documents that they have, they’re completely incompetent or they’re outside of the rules of the courts. But sometimes it’s taking a bit of a back seat and remembering that usually, particularly in parenting matters, this is their family, this is their children. They’re going to be emotional. They’re going to be very, very heated. They’re going to be very, very stimulated in the way that they do things, they’re going to be very, very emotional and agitated. I think that as lawyers, we have a responsibility just to try and make things a bit easier for them as well. Even though we’re meant to be looking after our clients own interests, that doesn’t mean that we don’t try and make the court more efficient. So as an example they might have a document they want to tender and they’ve sent you a copy of it and they forgot to bring it to court… Just give them the copy of the document. The judges are going to see that as well from you and they’re going to know that you’re somebody who’s really, really, helping the court. You’re really trying to make it an efficient process that day and often when I’m dealing with self represented persons, I will go and introduce myself to them. I won’t just ignore them outside of court. I’ll go and introduce myself. I’ll explain what’s being sought. I’ll give them a copy of documents that I think that they might not either have, or I’ll send them a word version of the orders that I’m seeking. These are the orders I’m seeking, have a read of them. Let me know if there’s anything that you agree to or don’t agree to. Let’s go back into the judge and see how much quicker we can get through today. Because if I can make my client’s life easier by doing that, why wouldn’t I? I think that judges really appreciate it as well, when they see that people aren’t just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. TIP: While a lawyer doesn’t have a general duty of care towards an opposing self represented litigant, they are required to act with honesty, respect, and fairness, the same way you would expect a lawyer to act towards a legally trained opponent. They must avoid unfairly exploiting the underrepresented party or their lack of knowledge about legal matters, and must notify the opponent and the court if the opponent makes a concession that’s contrary to the true position. Sometimes it’s obvious that concessions should be made. As an example, if a self represented person is asking for something that I think is actually appropriate in the circumstances, I’m not going to sit there and argue against it just because my client wants me to. I’ll give my client certain advice about, well, look, the court’s likely to insist anyway, and if you can be seen as being really, helpful in trying to make the court more efficient, then why wouldn’t you. It goes to your broader mindset as well, about, as an example in parenting matters, when you’re thinking about your kids more than just thinking about yourself, as an example. So I think as practitioners, we have a responsibility to make things as easy as possible. Often what I’ll say to people is that if you’ve got a self represented person on the other side, send them an email straight away, “Hey, you can contact me on this number. I prefer everything to be in writing. But if you want to have a chat about the orders that I’m sending you, feel free to give me a call and we can workshop it” to try and be as easy as possible to make it easier for your clients in the long run and also cheaper if you’re not having to read 20 emails a day from a self represented litigant about every issue under the sun. If there are documents that you can send them, they might say “I can’t open the form. So therefore I can’t get my affidavit filed right now.” Send them a blank copy of the form. it might be two seconds out of your day. But it’s going to make it a lot easier when you come to court the next day. They can’t get the link for the Teams meeting that you’ve done. The Family Court’s doing lots of things on Teams at the moment which is great, mind you. I think it’s the best thing that’s ever happened because it makes it a lot easier for, particularly self represented litigants who are managing work and they’re managing their children, to be able to also engage with the court system. Send them a copy of the Teams link. You don’t have to say “no, you can get it from the court yourself”, just send them the copy of the Teams link. It’s things like that, I think that the court would really appreciate it. The court doesn’t see a lot of what we do when dealing with self represented litigants. They don’t realize how frustrating it can be. Sometimes they do because they see the correspondence that comes through to them and things to that effect. But if you can make a self represented litigant’s life a little bit easier by just giving the basics without prejudicing your client’s own case, why wouldn’t you? |
00:29:09 | DT: | Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s so many reasons to do that, right? And one of them is We have an obligation to the court to do it, but it’s also that we have an obligation to our client, right? You’re right, it saves a lot of money. |
00:29:19 | CI: | And every single court in Australia has a rule somewhere in their rules that the courts need to be just quick and cheap. |
00:29:26 | DT: | Yep. |
00:29:27 | CI: | Yep. I know that self represented litigants do not make things just quick and cheap. I understand that completely, but if we can make it a little bit easier to try and meet that criteria in any court that we’re sitting in, why wouldn’t we? |
00:29:37 | DT: | Yeah, absolutely, and I think also, you can’t underestimate the value from an advocacy perspective of being seen to be a helpful assistant to the court. We see that all the time, even when we’re dealing with our colleagues against one another, that you engender more trust with the bench by being helpful by not taking stupid points and by not getting in the way. Sometimes I think about a mistake I made as a very junior barrister where I was cross examining someone and they gave an answer and they said, but can I explain the answer? And I said no, and thought, well, that was dumb. I just look like a [redacted] now. And it’s going to come up in reexamination anyway, but now I look like I’m just being captious and it helps a lot to be reasonable and not take the points you don’t need to take. |
00:30:24 | CI: | Absolutely. As an example, I had a matter where my client was very, very firm on, they did not like the self represented other party and they did not want anything to do with the self represented other party and said my instructions were “do not give them an itch, just don’t, just make it really difficult for them because they’re making it difficult for me.” And I had to look at everything and think about it in perspective and thought, you and this person have another 15 years of co-parenting while the child is under the age of 18 and then you’re going to be grandparents, you’re going to be at the wedding, you’re going to be at events for this child. Why? Why make their life more difficult now? Because it’s only going to make it more difficult for you to have a co-parenting relationship going forward. So, give them a little bit here. Don’t take every objectionable point. Don’t argue about basic things. Let’s just bring it back and actually work out what it is we’re actually asking for and what we’re actually fighting for. |
00:31:11 | DT: | Yeah, and also this is often the first or only impression of the legal system in the court system that a self represented litigant has had, right? So it’s a chance to role model what a functional relationship between litigants looks like. If you’re adversarial and closed off and combative, then that reinforces a preconception I think that many litigants have when they’re representing themselves that they need to be combative and forceful and not make any concession. I think it would be a lot to expect that you would have a positive collaborative working relationship with the self represented litigant, but you might get a bit closer to that if you extend the first olive branch. |
00:31:56 | CI: | Absolutely. And I think one of the other issues is, even ignoring people and ignoring their emails and just responding, “I’m not going to engage with you”. It doesn’t show that you’re trying to make things easier for anybody’s lives in reality. And I think particularly in family law, when so many people are self represented, particularly in the early stages of proceedings and up to the first interim hearing, if we can do things a bit easier, if we can draft the first letter of instruction to an expert, because they don’t know what to put in the instruction letter. They might have 3,000 things they want to put in an instruction letter, but they don’t know what’s legally appropriate. So if you do that kind of basic stuff of drafting the first draft and sending it to them in words so that they can update it, or preparing a set of orders that might be by consent, because again, they won’t know what they’re actually asking for. There are little things that we can do can actually make it a lot easier in the long run, and with the amount of self represented persons that I’ve ever dealt with both as a solicitor and now as counsel, it’s always been easier to manage a matter where the other person doesn’t think that you’re a scumbag lawyer just out for their money. |
00:32:52 | DT: | I don’t think we should understate that there was no ethical impediment to providing that procedural assistance. |
00:32:59 | CI: | Exactly. As an example, I had one only this week. I was acting for an independent children’s lawyer and there was a set of orders that we’d agreed to. I had my iPad. I had my laptop. I run completely digital briefs, and the self represented litigant didn’t have a digital copy or a copy of the orders that had just been agreed because we’d signed them all digitally. I provided my laptop to him and said, “here, you can read them off my laptop because I’ve got my iPad here. I can read it off here, that’s fine.” It’s little tiny things that just made it easier. Instead of having to wait 15 minutes for the orders to be printed out and then we all come back into court. I said, “here, you can read off my laptop”. My instructing solicitor helped that person by just giving him some really quick points of, “here’s the section of the Act that she’s talking about. Here’s a copy of it”. It just made everything so much quicker so that people didn’t have to stand down the matter, go outside, find a hard copy of the particular section of the legislation that was being spoken about. The judge that we had was fantastic in explaining, “this is what the section is about. Miss Ingenito’s provided you a copy of it, but this is what she’s talking about and this is the practical effect of it”. And I found that when everyone worked collaboratively, we got out by midday. It’s fantastic. Early day in court. Instead of sitting there all day and waiting around so that a self represented person could get their head around basic things. |
00:34:04 | DT: | Yeah. Okay, so we’ve talked about our responsibilities if we’re appointed to assist a self represented litigant. Maybe we’re a duty barrister or a duty solicitor or appointed under the scheme. We’ve talked about our responsibilities if we’re against a self represented litigant. What about the bench’s responsibilities to self represented litigants? Because I think a lot of lawyers feel a frustration at whether the extent of the assistance the litigant is getting, either procedurally or substantively at a hearing, is going beyond what the bench is supposed to or even entitled to give. |
00:34:38 | CI: | I’ll say this from a family law perspective. I think the judges do give as much assistance as they need to do, and sometimes it feels like they are going above and beyond. But we have to remember that this is usually people’s children or people’s entire livelihoods that we’re talking about. So it’s not inappropriate, in my respectful submission, to give that little bit more help than what you might otherwise give, as an example, as a legally represented person. TIP: Judges do have certain duties towards self represented litigants. For example, in Tomasevic v Travaglini & Anor [2007] VSC 337, the court held that a judge has a duty to assist a self represented litigant to the extent that it’s necessary to ensure a fair trial. Now, the exact extent of that assistance will depend on the specific litigant and the case in question, but fairness and balance can be seen as guiding principles for how far to extend that assistance. However, the assistance afforded by the bench can cover both substantive legal issues as well as understanding procedural issues. The limit, though, is that the judge can’t act as an advocate for the self represented litigant. The Family Court’s decision in Johnson v Johnson (1997), is another one that highlights the obligations of the court towards unrepresented parties, and in Johnson v Johnson, the court suggested that those obligations included informing the litigant about the trial proceedings, the order of witness testimonies, their right to cross examine, explaining civil procedure concepts to the litigant, assisting them by gathering basic information from witnesses, like their name, address, and occupation, but not extending to conducting the examination in chief or cross examination for them. And if requested by other parties, explaining to the unrepresented party the implications and potential drawbacks of deviating from normal procedures. So, while a judge has a duty to assist self represented litigants to ensure a fair trial, it doesn’t extend to acting as an advocate for the self represented litigant. The judge still has to be neutral between all the parties, whether they’re represented or self represented, but the extent to which a self represented party needs assistance to ensure a fair trial might mean that the judge does have to treat them differently. I know that when I’ve dealt with self represented persons on the other side, I’ve seen the judges given leniency about the rules of the affidavits or length of documents or the tendering of documents, and I’ve always thought that’s really unfair. if I’d done that, I wouldn’t have got that same leniency. It wouldn’t have been accepted in the same way. But I always take a step back a little bit and go, “let’s not forget these persons are really dealing with their own kids or their own money. I don’t really know what that’s like. So, maybe it’s not so bad.” But in every court in Australia, there are always either duty lawyers or duty barristers in the New South Wales courts, and I can’t speak for other courts, but in the New South Wales courts and under the Uniform Civil Procedure rules, we have referrals to get legal assistance from the Law Society or the Bar Association’s pro bono scheme, so judges have that responsibility where they see that somebody really needs that assistance to refer people out to those schemes. Now, whether or not they take that assistance is a matter for them. I think everybody who’s ever referred to the scheme should always jump on that ability because the schemes are there for that reason is to help people with managing their matters, and often it’s really tough matters particularly in the Supreme Court, you find it with the mortgages list or the possessions list. |
00:37:39 | DT: | Yeah. |
00:37:39 | CI: | You see it in the real property list where they really need some help or it could be in the professional negligence list as an example as well, where they need some help, or “I’ve had a lawyer who helped me and now I can’t afford to get my money back or to show what they did that wasn’t appropriate”. So I think judges are doing what they need to do. They give them the guides, they give them the brochures. If there are brochures, they tell them the relevant rules so they can sit down and go to AustLII and Google them. They refer them to the pro bono schemes where they make those referrals out instead of running a trial straight away, they’ll go, “you know what? You probably do need some help. We’ll refer you to the scheme and you can come back tomorrow and Let’s see how you went with getting that advice about what you should be doing or what applications you might need to run”. In the family law sphere they tell them the rules, they give them the copy of the documents, they say, “watch the webinar on the Family Court’s website about this particular issue”. There are so many practice notes in the Family Court space that people can go and read and understand what’s going on. And they say sometimes they’re practice notes for the practitioners, but they’re all for the self representing litigants. It tells you, this is what happens. This is what your next step is. This is the documents we need. So I think that the judges are doing as much as they can and I think that when us as practitioners think, oh, that judge is being just so nice to them because they’re self represented, we’ve got to think about it from the perspective of imagine it was you running this without the legal knowledge that you have. Once we’ve got it ingrained in our brains, we know what’s going on. We might not even realize, we know what’s going on. These persons are usually not educated very well. They’re usually persons who are down on their luck. They don’t have the money to go and speak to a lawyer, or even have the time to go and see community legal centers or otherwise. So a little bit of leniency here and there isn’t terrible, I think obviously, as long as it doesn’t go too far. But, judges are very conscious of self represented litigants and they have their own policies about how to deal with self represented persons and what things they can and cannot tell them. But even as lawyers, we have a responsibility, I think, to be as helpful as we can without prejudicing our clients’ cases. |
00:39:23 | DT: | How do you manage the client in your saying, “well, hang on, I thought this natural justice stuff was all about, fair play. The same rules for the same parties. Why are they getting all of this indulgence and you are not, and I’m not?” |
00:39:36 | CI: | For me, I think I look at it as, we need to get your matter over and done with, let’s get over today. So otherwise, if we keep adjourning it and letting them objecting to this, and they’re gonna have no evidence, we’re gonna be coming back to court another day anyway. Particularly when talking about parenting, and I say this because a lot of my matters of parenting matters, that’s what a majority of my practice is. I’m looking at it from the perspective of these are your kids we’re talking about. Let’s not be rushed or brash in our approach or difficult in what we’re doing because these are your children and we need to make sure that your children are at the forefront of our minds. And I appreciate completely when my client is saying to me, “well, I wanted a longer affidavit. How come they got a longer affidavit?”, as an example. And often I’ll say, “well, let’s not forget that 90% of it is not something that’s going to help the court anyway. Your affidavit is appropriately structured and appropriately organised that the judge can see it and go, yep, I understand completely.” Theirs is often not. It’s often full of submissions and it’s often full of thoughts and opinions on things that aren’t going to sway the judge’s mind anyway. |
00:40:33 | DT: | And all of the data, all of the research suggests that these small indulgences are nothing compared to the enormous benefit that being represented, represents in any class of civil or criminal proceeding. |
00:40:45 | CI: | Exactly, and the reality is that judges are smart enough. You might say, “their affidavit had all this stuff in it that I don’t agree with, and it’s all false and it’s all lies, and you’re not saying anything about and the judges are smart enough”. They’ve been appointed to the bench for a reason, they’re not average Joe walking in from the street. These are extraordinarily intelligent persons who are appointed to the bench, either as judges or registrars know what’s going on they’ve had the training about how to deal with self represented persons, they know what’s relevant, what’s not, what they have to consider in making their decision. Giving that small indulgence that they can read an extra half a page isn’t going to change their mind substantively, that can’t be addressed. |
00:41:20 | DT: | Absolutely. I think for most of our conversation today, we’ve been talking about litigants who are either involved in a process that just needs to be completed one way or the other, like parenting proceedings, or that have a reasonable cause of action, but because of their life circumstances, they find it difficult to pursue that with legal help. There is a class of self represented litigant who have some unusual beliefs about the justice system, for example, and about their legal rights, and pursue them in some pretty unusual ways. We’re talking about the sovereign citizen class of self represented litigant, I suppose. Have you had any experience with that class of litigant and how would your advice about dealing with self represented litigants change when you’re dealing with that sort of person? |
00:42:03 | CI: | Absolutely. I’ve had it on a personal level where I had a self represented person want to cross examine me when I was a lawyer because they had different beliefs about how bankruptcy proceedings should or should not work. I’ve had it in circumstances where I’ve had sovereign citizens who have been opposed to me, and I have had it where they’ve been co accused as well. So I have had that unfortunate experience of dealing with persons who are for all intents and purposes, almost at the class of vexatious, in the way that they are pursuing things. When you’re dealing with somebody who’s a really difficult self representative litigant, I think that the easiest way to get things done is make things really clear black and white. In your letters to them or your emails to them, put things in dot points so it’s really easy for them to understand what you’re saying. When it comes to things like strike out applications or vexatious litigant applications, making it really clear that, “we say you are a vexatious litigant because of X, Y, and Z. We consider our application will be successful because of X, Y, and Z.” Now people might say to me, “Chauntelle, you’re telling them all your cards. You’re giving them all of what your submissions are getting.” It’s going to come out anyway. But at least if they’ve got that notice of what you’re going to be saying, they can run whatever application in response and then you’re not taken by surprise and then need an adjournment. So you’re adding more costs for your client because now they’ve raised 15 points that you’ve never heard about, and you’re going to be saying, “well that’s procedurally unfair to me, I need an adjournment now.” We’ve just wasted another day. And so I find that it’s easiest just to make things really black and white. Yes, they’re going to send 3,000 emails. Yes, they’re going to copy the courts and they’re going to copy the attorney general’s department and ICAC and all the other people that they think under the world that they are going to have to copy to get their point across. Yes, it’s frustrating. And yes, you roll your eyes every time that you get that email, but I find that just taking a step back, reading what it is, taking a breath and thinking, do I need to respond to it? Yes or no. And if I need to respond to it, how can I make it as simple as possible for me to get my point across to them? |
00:43:44 | DT: | Yeah. I think that “do I need to respond?” is actually an important consideration that we don’t always think about. We’re used to, “I get an email from my opponent, I respond to it”, right? Of course I do, but I think we have to, yeah, exercise some thought there about whether there’s anything to be gained even engaging with some of this stuff. |
00:44:04 | CI: | And often it’s not a lot of the time, they just want someone to fight with them. They want somebody who’s going to entertain that drive that they have to get their point across. They often will send 300 emails a particular day and they will copy everybody under the sun, and often the judges associates are smart enough to not bring those emails to the attention of the court. The practitioners otherwise will know, do I have to deal with this or not? Do I have to refer this onto an appropriate body or not? So I find that dealing with people who have really difficult self represented litigants, a lot of time it’s taking a step back and going, “do I need to respond? Is there something that I actually have to deal with in this email?” As an example ,I had one only a couple of weeks ago who kept sending emails about an issue that wasn’t legally sound. She kept saying that she was entitled to a particular amount of money and we had to pay it immediately. I looked at it and went to my instructing solicitor, just don’t engage. If she wants to raise this, she can bring an application before the court to do so, but at the moment you’re aware of what she’s asking for, start thinking about it in the back of your mind, but just don’t engage in the email because you’re going to have emails back and forth and fighting, “I’m entitled, no you’re not, I’m entitled, no I’m not, I’m entitled.” You’re wasting your client’s money. I said, “if she really wants to raise this issue, she’ll raise it before the judge at the appropriate time, if she brings an application or not.” And I’m finding that particularly with dealing with those really difficult family law litigants, a lot of the time the judges are just saying, “I’m not dealing with that. I’m not hearing that. I haven’t got an application before me. I don’t have evidence about it. I’m not hearing that issue.” And it’s put to bed straight away. So if I’d sent four emails in reply and cost my client $400 an hour in doing so, nothing’s been gained. |
00:45:32 | DT: | Yeah, and I certainly, from my experience, would say that you don’t see the indulgence from the bench in those situations. You can absolutely rely on the bench to rule the right way and to not indulge something that is just going to waste everyone’s time. |
00:45:47 | CI: | Oh, they’ll nip it in the bud. something needs to be done, they will do it. But they won’t just be engaging with people saying, “oh, you can just do whatever you want under the sun and we won’t mind”, particularly when they are Incompetent applications or things that the court cannot deal with or things that the court should not deal with without the appropriate evidence. So, I think when you’re getting those 300 emails a day that are just waffles of thoughts and rights and responsibilities or otherwise, unless it needs your response, you just don’t engage. File it away, tell counsel about it if it’s a matter that’s coming up to trial so that they’re aware of what’s likely to be raised so they can address it. Because again, you’re saving your client an extra day in court by them knowing what the argument is and being able to respond appropriately straight away. |
00:46:25 | DT: | Absolutely. Now at the top of the episode, you mentioned that these changes that are coming in 6th of May, this Monday at the time of recording are going to result in some big changes to the family law legislation, but potentially making them a little bit more easily understood by people representing themselves. Can you tell me a bit more about that? |
00:46:43 | CI: | Absolutely. So the changes to the family law legislation that come in on Monday are in relation to parenting only. They are in relation to the presumption of what was called equal shared parental responsibility, and parental responsibility is the idea about the long term decision making for children. And under the current, today, but what will be the previous legislation, there was a statutory pathway when equal shared parental responsibility was ordered, that children would have equal or significant and substantial time if equal shared parental responsibility was ordered. That was a really good statutory pathway that I still think, was a good statutory pathway that we knew when giving people advice, that if you’re agreeing that equal shared parental responsibility should be the order should be made, then children need equal or substantial and significant time, and substantial and significant time had various meanings, but it wasn’t about really quantum of time, but quality of time as well. |
00:47:35 | DT: | Yeah. |
00:47:36 | CI: | That’s all gone. So it’s making it a lot easier that we’re looking at each family independently and not saying that we must start at an idea of equal or significant and substantial time. And we’re saying “what actually works for this family? How does their life and what’s being sought, work?” If you’ve got somebody who’s working 12 hours a day, six days a week, they’re not going to be able to have equal time with their kids. it’s a practical impracticality. |
00:47:57 | DT: | Yeah. |
00:47:57 | CI: | And so it’s good that we don’t have that automatic, we must consider this as the statutory pathway and this is how we must be thinking about things. what’s called the section 60CC factors, and if you ever hear of somebody who does family law, section 60CC is basically what the court must consider in relation to time that children spend with each parent. There used to be about 13 factors and two primary, two primary considerations. Now we’ve just got six, and those six considerations are all pretty equal, with safety for children and families being the paramount consideration still, even though we’ve got these six equal factors. It still goes into things about the meaningful relationship, but it also talks about children’s wishes, which are being much more thought about now. TIP: Chauntelle just referenced some recent changes to the Family Law Act 1975 (Cth), they commenced on the 6th of May 2024. These amendments include changes to how the courts will make parenting orders in the best interests of the child, the removal of the presumption of equal shared parental responsibility, and it also amends the requirements for changing final parenting orders, as well as the role of the independent children’s lawyer and the introduction of what’s called “a harmful proceeding order”. Chauntelle has also referenced section 60CC of the Family Law Act, a critical provision that outlines the considerations that a court must take into account when determining what’s in the best interests of the child. The new section 60CC, which as I said, came into effect on the 6th of May 2024, removes the two tier hierarchical structure of primary and additional considerations and replaces them with six general considerations, as well as two further considerations that only apply if the child is Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander. Under the previous legislation, there was the thoughts of the child, or the wishes of the child as part of it, but now it’s much more focused on the wishes of the child, I find. And part of those changes as well… independent children’s lawyers who are appointed now have a statutory obligation to meet with children, unless there is exceptional circumstances, such as they’re under the age of five, or there’s another reason why they shouldn’t be engaging with an independent children’s lawyer. Now in New South Wales, we’re actually really, really good. We meet with children already. So for us in New South Wales, there’s not much of a big change happening. But there are other states in Australia where independent children’s lawyers refuse to meet with children. They just wouldn’t do it. Now, because it is a requirement, we’re going to be having a lot more independent children’s lawyers who are dealing with the children themselves and getting their wishes at the beginning and understanding why the family dynamic may or may not work as an example for having particular time regimes. So it is making it a lot easier for people to understand, and a lot less factors to be considered. I think there are benefits and negatives to the changes. We don’t have the automatic statutory pathway about equal time. But at the same time, we’re thinking about families on a very holistic basis now. We’re thinking schedules of work, schedules of the kids. You know, If your kids are doing sports four nights a week, why are we arguing about their weeknight time when they’re getting home, they’re eating dinner, they’re doing their homework, they go to bed. |
00:50:38 | DT: | Not exactly quality time. |
00:50:39 | CI: | Not exactly quality time. And we’re also looking at it from the perspective of… as much as I can understand as a parent, you want to spend as much time with your kid as possible, if it’s not practical for them to be lugging school bags back and forth, or from households, or trombones, or cellos between households because there was an equal time requirement, isn’t that better for kids? Making their lives a lot easier, making it a lot easier for them to understand that ‘I have two households and I love my parents both, but I don’t have to stay every night at dad’s house or every night at mum’s house or an equal time at each house for them both to love me’. |
00:51:09 | DT: | Yeah. |
00:51:10 | CI: | I think that there are really positive things that are going to come out of these changes and I’m hoping that for self represented litigants, they don’t think that because the parliament has made it that there is no equal time presumption or statutory obligation to consider it, that they won’t be able to get equal time at the same time. We’re looking at things very holistically and I say it to a lot of parents, particularly with primary school aged kids, because high school kids are just going to do whatever the hell they want, really. But particularly with primary school aged kids, that we’ve got to start looking at it, “what works for your kid? Is it easier for them to have the same night of the week?” So kids who are in primary school, they know the days of the week. They know that Tuesdays are sport days, Wednesdays is when I bring my cello to school, Thursdays is when I, I don’t know, do baking, or whatever it might be. But if we can work with parents going, “okay, let’s look at the days of the week, let’s look at your kid’s routine, let’s look at your work routine. Why wouldn’t we work with that, and make it as easy for you to have a co parenting relationship, if that’s safe to do so, and make it as easy for your kid to know, ‘it’s Monday night’s I’m with dad and dad’s going to take me to cello because I do Monday night with dad and cello every Monday night’”. So it’s really like bringing it back to what suits your family and I think that it’s a really good thing that Parliament has made it “let’s look at the individual circumstances” instead of saying you must consider equal time as a statutory obligation if equal shared parental responsibility was also going to be what was considered by the courts. |
00:52:23 | DT: | Sounds like this has really expanded the court’s discretion to just find a workable outcome in terms of both reducing the factors to be considered because it clears things out a little bit, but also just not starting from a particular prescriptive position. |
00:52:38 | CI: | Absolutely, it’s really made it “what’s working for this family?”, and by taking away equal shared parental responsibility, which was the obligation that both parents had to agree to a particular long term decision, it’s taken it back to what you have as a parent, which is each of you can jointly or severally make a decision about the long term care of your child. It’s good in ways that we don’t have that they both have to agree to a long term decision because sometimes it’s just not possible to have that agreement. We are going to be seeing, I think, a lot more sole parental responsibility for particular issues. As an example, sole parental responsibility on education, so where the kid goes to school, or sole parental responsibility on medical things where, usually medical things, the only time that we come into arguments about should a child have a long term medical decision is things like gender issues, so whether or not a child should go through gender affirmation care, whether or not there should be limbs removed, limbs being tonsils and otherwise, and it’s pretty rare that people argue about, necessary medical things, but it’s usually where it’s more of a discretionary medical thing whether or not children should be taking medications for things like autism or otherwise. Even things like birth control for children who might not have hit 14 and been able to go to the doctor’s by themselves, but it’s appropriate because of a child’s particular body that they have birth control at a younger age. |
00:53:51 | DT: | Yeah, like another indication for that. |
00:53:53 | CI: | Yeah, or hormone treatments where it’s not necessary to make sure that they don’t pass away, but it’s necessary when it’s to make their life or their quality of life better. It’s pretty rare that we see long term decision making coming before the court where parents can’t agree and I think the only times that I’ve really seen those issues come before the court was when it was about gender affirmation care. But as an example, the Supreme Court had a case a few weeks ago where both of the parents didn’t want child to go through cancer treatment anymore, and the hospital brought the parents and the child to court to say we want to make that decision because this is really important under their parens patriae jurisdiction. And it’s things like that will also, in the Family Court, where one parent wants to do a particular treatment for long term issues and the other parent says, “no, I don’t want to, I want to try something else or an alternative methodology”. So it’s things like that that I think that we’re going to see a lot more sole parental responsibility because there’s no obligation to come to a decision and have both parents executed jointly. The new legislation does require that both parents give a genuine attempt to come to the agreement together, but there is a little catch all at the end of it saying that if a third party doesn’t have to be satisfied, that the decision was actually made jointly. So we are going to be seeing a lot of people just exercising their parental mind as it is without orders in place. but I think we’ll also see the courts coming back and having a lot more litigation about long term decision making, particularly where the children go to school and medical decisions. The other issues in relation to religion and culture very rarely come up where you need someone to make a decision about those kinds of things. |
00:55:18 | DT: | Chauntelle, last question before you go. If someone’s listened to this episode and wants to take the more constructive approach that I think you’ve advocated for throughout the episode… I’m really impressed with your generosity of spirit towards the self represented litigant, I wish more of us had that approach… If someone wanted to emulate that and maybe help out a little bit, what are some of the ways that they can do that either through a duty solicitor or barrister scheme or Family Law 101 even? |
00:55:44 | CI: | I can say these things. If your law society or your association has an opportunity to do pro bono work, do it. I will do as much as I can and as much time as I can with helping people who need that help. If people want to join Family Law 101 as practitioners, we are always looking for people to assist with running our workshops. As I said, all of our paid workshops our proceeds go to charity, and we run also free workshops really regularly. If you can assist with your community legal centers, community legal centers are really under the pump at the moment, and there are so many community legal centers in different areas of law. It’s not just family law or domestic violence or those kinds of issues that need people to help, but even with how to get money back from somebody that you paid work that you’d done, dealing with fair work issues, dealing with particularly gender issues as well. I know the inner city legal center is always looking for people to help out there as well. So if you can volunteer some time to helping out those areas, it’s really helpful to do so. There’s lots of fair days and things like that, where they might have people where they need, somebody on the ground to help out with issues like sex work, as an example, where they might need help with understanding what their rights and obligations are in doing those kinds of things. So if you can give back some time, I think there’s nothing better that you can do because it means that everybody’s lives are better. The court’s lives are better, you as a practitioner are going to have a better working relationship with persons on the other side of you, but also you’re going to make it easier for people to come to court and know exactly what they’re actually talking about. The New South Wales Law Society has duty lawyer schemes, and I think it’s really, really helpful to try, if you can, to volunteer on those schemes. I think that the best thing that practitioners can do though, having said all that, is look at how you can help your community. If you speak a particular language, see if there are legal help centers for that particular language, where you might have people who don’t speak English, who don’t understand the Australian legal system, they really need help with understanding exactly what they’re entitled to in various ways. So if you can help out with your local church even, and say that you’re available to offer your assistance, one night a fortnight, one night a month, one night a year even, do so. There are some really great community legal centers out there that are always looking for people to help out, and they might be a bit out of your local locality, but they might have persons in that particular area who do speak your language. I think we have a responsibility to give back, and I’ve always said every year I will always try and give back as much as I can. I do legal aid work, even though it’s some of the worst paid work in Australia. I’ll do it because it’s not about the money for me. It’s about making sure that people who really do need that help do have that help, volunteering as much as I can. Obviously this only so far that as practitioners, we individually can do, and if we’re employed solicitors, we know that we can only do as so much as our bosses allow us to do so. But as much as you can, getting people involved, and even with things like trivia nights or gala days that various community legal centers do, get involved with those, because it can’t hurt. |
00:58:21 | DT: | Absolutely. Those are all great tips. Get involved with your local community legal center or a specialist one where you feel like you could share some knowledge. And even, yeah, your local community, that’s a great idea. And that really touches on kind of some intersectionality with self represented litigants and language difficulties and things that we could have a whole other one hour conversation about that, but we just don’t have time. Chauntelle, thank you so much for joining me today on Hearsay. |
00:58:42 | CI: | Thank you for having me. |
00:58:43 | DT: | As always, you’ve been listening to Hearsay the Legal Podcast. I’d like to thank my guest today, Chauntelle Ingenito, for coming on the show. Now, if you’re looking for more family law related content, you could check out our live episode of Hearsay, recorded with Family Court Judicial Registrars, Brett McGrath and Sharni Jenkinson. That episode’s all about how the Family Court triages domestic and family violence risks in parenting matters. If you’re an Australian legal practitioner, you can claim one continuing professional development point for listening to this episode. Whether an activity entitles you to claim a CPD unit is self assessed, as you know, but we suggest this episode entitles you to claim a substantive law point. More information on claiming and tracking your points on Hearsay can be found on our website. Hearsay the Legal Podcast is brought to you by Lext Australia, a legal innovation company that makes the law easier to access and easier to practice, including your CPD. I’d like to ask you a favour, listeners. If you like Hearsay the Legal Podcast, please leave us a Google review. It helps other listeners to find us, and that keeps us in business. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you on the next episode of Hearsay. |
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