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Piercing the Limits: The Defence of Consent in Russell v R
What area(s) of law does this episode consider? | Criminal law; grievous bodily harm (GBH); female genital mutilation (FGM); manslaughter; consent as a defence to assault related offences. |
Why is this topic relevant? | The NSW Criminal Court of Appeal’s recent landmark decision of Russell v R grapples with complex legal questions around the concept of consent as a defence to various kinds of assault. As non-traditional practices which may challenge conventional notions of consent become more popular over time, such as body modification and sadomasochism, it becomes increasingly important to fine tune how consent may be offered or restricted in different criminal offences. Possessing an acute understanding of the distinction between lawful activity and unacceptably harmful conduct, ultimately requires thoughtful contemplation of how the value of personal autonomy ought to be weighed against the need for public safety. The formula to strike a successful balance between the two is relevant far beyond the courtroom of one case, and will continue to generate future debate in both courts and academic discourse. |
What legislation is considered in this episode? | Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) (‘Crimes Act’) Evidence Act 1995 (NSW) (‘Evidence Act’) Interpretation Act 1987 (NSW) |
What cases are considered in this episode? | Russell v R [2023] NSWCCA 272
The Queen v A2 (2019) 269 CLR 507
Perre v Apand Pty Ltd (1999) 198 CLR 180
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What are the main points? |
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What are the practical takeaways? |
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Show notes | Gleeson, M. (2024), ‘The Limits of Personal Autonomy – Consent No Defence to Grievous Bodily Harm’, NSW Bar Association News. |
DT = David Turner; MG = Michael Gleeson
00:00:00 | DT: | Hello and welcome to Hearsay the Legal Podcast, a CPD podcast that allows Australian lawyers to earn their CPD points on the go and at a time that suits them. I’m your host, David Turner. Hearsay the Legal Podcast is proudly supported by Lext Australia. Lext’s mission is to improve user experiences in the law and legal services, and Hearsay the Legal Podcast is how we’re improving the experience of CPD. In this episode of Hearsay, we’re going to be talking about the implications of a recent New South Wales Criminal Court of Appeal decision, Russell v R. Now this landmark decision grapples with some complex legal questions about the concept of consent as a defence to different kinds of assault, including assault occasioning grievous bodily harm. As non-traditional practices that challenge conventional notions of consent become more popular, like body modification, sadomasochism, it becomes increasingly important to fine tune how consent can be offered or restricted in answer to different criminal offences. Now, possessing an understanding of the distinction between lawful activity and unacceptably harmful conduct ultimately requires some thoughtful contemplation of how the value of personal autonomy ought to be weighed against the need for public safety – something that’s intrinsically a public policy question. The formula to strike a successful balance between the two is relevant beyond the courtroom of one case and will continue to generate some future debate in courts, policy, and academic discourse. Joining us today to unpack all of these complexities and nuances and contemplate the potential implications of the future landscape of criminal law and other fields of law is Michael Gleeson, Crown Prosecutor at the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Michael, thank you so much for joining me on Hearsay. |
00:01:51 | MG: | Thank you, David. Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on. |
00:01:53 | DT: | Now, before we get into this topic, which I’m excited to talk about because it’s a fascinating developing area of the criminal law, but one that I think, as we’ll explore, has some interesting implications for areas of civil law, law of torts, for example. I just wanted to understand your background in the law and how you came to be where you are at the ODPP. |
00:02:11 | MG: | Well, it’s a long winded journey, so I’ll give you the quick version, if you’d like. So David, my interest in criminal law started when I was 13 years old. Back then, I undertook work experience from school and I was with a detective from the local police and he took me along to the Crown Court. Now, the Crown Court is on par or similar to our District Court here in New South Wales – so, the criminal jurisdiction, very similar, judge and jury trials, that type of thing. And it was the first time that I’d ever been inside a court, and I was immediately hooked. It was pure theatre. It was a serious criminal case and I was just bowled over by the tone, the barristers, the judge, the jury, and the fights on each side. So the fighting for justice sort of thing and it left me with a real hope that I could one day become a barrister, which was going to be difficult from a working class background in Longsight, Manchester, where I was born, however, I knuckled down and studying didn’t come easy for me initially. I wasn’t gifted in that sense, but I still had this dream to become a criminal law barrister and so what happened was I didn’t do law immediately. I did a public administration, public policy degree, and that had a lot of areas of law attached to it, social policy, justice policy and that led me then to doing a one year law degree, which was then almost impossible to do. So you think about a law degree, I know you’ve undertaken a law degree and the years of sacrifice and everything else that you had to endure to pass that degree, but to do it in a year. |
00:04:02 | DT: | Yeah, I can’t imagine. I’m just in my head trying to think about how you might. |
00:04:06 | MG: | Well, it wasn’t in effect the full law degree, but it was certainly a tough year. And what happened was that I somehow got a pretty good result on that course, which led me to getting a scholarship from my inn in the UK. Now the inns, I’ll explain, there’s four inns of court, very traditional sort of English system. It’s four inns. My inn was Gray’s Inn. |
00:04:31 | DT: | I’ve heard of Grey’s Inn. I think that was the inn of Thomas Cromwell, actually. |
00:04:35 | MG: | Yeah, yeah. |
00:04:36 | DT: | Henry VIII’s barrister or lawyer. |
00:04:38 | MG: | Some of the more interesting barristers, we might say. As a segue, Margaret Thatcher with Lincoln’s Inn. |
00:04:43 | DT: | Oh, there you go. |
00:04:44 | MG: | So Gray’s Inn, and particularly as my hope was to practice on the Northern Circuit in the north of England, Gray’s Inn traditionally attracted people from the north. So lo and behold, I got this scholarship, which allowed me then to fund my bar course, the UK equivalent of the bar course, and my luck continued because I passed that course as well. So lo and behold, in 1998, I’ve qualified as a barrister. Now, you can’t practice as a barrister in the UK until you fulfill a pupillage. Pupillage is again, just to bring your listeners into the language from the UK and how it correlates to New South Wales would be reading, so the reading equivalent, you know that from your experience at the private bar too. So we’re up to 1998 and I then got pupillage and I then practiced as a barrister in the UK and similar to a lot of junior barristers, I was a bit of a jack of all trades, which means I practiced in family law, personal injury, commercial work, contracts, etc. and played around with crime at that time, the first five years, wasn’t that interested. And then one day my criminal clerk said to me, “Mr Gleeson, we’d like you to do a criminal trial. No one else can do it, and it’s a good solicitor who briefs us a lot. So, you have to do it, basically.” So, there I went. I went along to the Crown Court and you never forget your first time, so they say and, I was defending a man. There was two men charged with, funnily enough, grievous bodily harm, there’d been a fight in a pub over a woman, and a glass had been smashed and placed in someone’s face. So, it went for about three, four days but, similar to when I was 13, as I reflected on earlier, this is now many years later, I’m actually fulfilled what I wanted to do partially in the sense of defending in the Crown Court and my local Crown Court in my city of Manchester, and so that was it for me. Criminal law was going to be everything, and so I dropped all the other areas and told the clerks, “all I wanted to do now was criminal work,” which is what I did for five years and I practiced. Commonly in the UK private bar, you’re encouraged to do prosecution and defence work. Back then, they didn’t have the system that we have here of full time crown prosecutors. They were beginning to move that way, but pretty much one week to the next, I would defend and prosecute in equal measure and I think that’s an important thing because you get to see how both sides of the legal profession work when we’re talking about criminal lawyers. When I defend, I know how the police work, how things got investigated, how charges were certified, etc. and equally, when I prosecute, I have a good understanding as to how a defence case will be run. So I do quite a bit of mentoring at the moment and I always encourage the law students to consider doing both aspects of the profession, that is prosecuting and defending. So in 2009, I left the UK and I arrived in Sydney with no legal connections or anything and, in effect, started again. So I did, and I did the LPAB course, which is the Legal Practice Admissions Board Certification for overseas lawyers and homegrown lawyers, and that was conducted at Sydney University, and they’d just opened that beautiful law building, the new law building there. So I had a year of doing lectures at Sydney Uni, which was pretty good. And I then went straight on to the bar course, in, not the same year, but the same sort of calendar year. So I started my studies at Sydney in May 2009 and in May 2010, I’d passed the bar course. Away I went. So my reading was at Freddy Jordan, or Frederick Jordan Chambers, here in the city, and I undertook a year there, and then I joined 11 Garfield Barwick Chambers. The reason for that was it had more criminal members to the floor and there were a number of people who also prosecuted. So I was keen to try and recreate my English practice in Sydney and so I spent a number of years at 11 Garfield Barwick and then in 2014 I joined Wardell Chambers and Wardell Chambers similarly had a number of barristers who defended and prosecuted in criminal work and I was mentored by Michael McHugh SC, as he was then, and Michael got me involved in appeal work. So I started appearing in the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal, and continued to undertake work for the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions, as well as the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, so for your listeners, federal and state crimes, as well as defending. So defending never left me. I’ve always had a strong magnetic pull to defending. Part of that is when I first came to Sydney, as I said earlier, I didn’t know anyone and I applied to the Aboriginal Legal Service to do some voluntary work because my mindset was that it would firstly introduce me to lawyers, but secondly, we had nothing like that in the UK, so obviously a legal service set up for the Indigenous population, solely for the Indigenous population. And that year still stays with me in the sense of what I found out about, firstly, Australia and its Indigenous population and even now I recall going along to court with the barristers, or the lawyers as they were then, who were employed by the ALS, Aboriginal Legal Service, and the salaries are not great. You’re not talking about fat cat lawyers here, David. It’s pretty much, you have a sense of social justice and doing the right thing, and that left a mark with me. And from that point, 2014, I was still doing prosecution work on a non-salaried Crown basis and not a full time Crown but the DPP would call me up and say, “can you do a case?” So, private barrister doing prosecution work. And then the former Director, Lloyd Babb, was in Newcastle District Court one morning, and he came into my chambers, I was doing a trial up there, and he asked me to apply to become a full time Crown. And I did. And so I signed my contract in February 2020 and became a Crown Prosecutor. It’s an appointed position by the Attorney-General of New South Wales. And that’s where I’ve ended up. |
00:11:50 | DT: | And here we are. |
00:11:50 | MG: | And here we are today in 2024. So exclusively prosecuting now. And undertaking jury trials, judge alone trials, predominantly in the District Court, criminal jurisdiction but I’ve also been deployed in the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal. We have a Court of Criminal Appeal division within the DPP. And so I’ve been doing appeal work as well. So that’s in a nutshell, a rather long nutshell, where I’ve arrived at in terms of my legal background. |
00:12:21 | DT: | Fantastic. And your career history, I mean, it’s all about breaking down barriers, isn’t it? Entering the private bar, which is, from what I understand in the UK, quite class stratified, coming to Australia and doing it all again. And I think what’s fascinating about that is it gives you this really varied perception of the legal profession both here and abroad and such a diverse range of circumstances and cases that you must have undertaken over the course of a career in the criminal law both here and in the UK, which I think is going to be really useful for our discussion today because our discussion today about consent to grievous bodily harm, some of our listeners will remember some of the seminal cases from their law school days here, and what they all have in common is that they’re such unique sets of facts and all of these cases provoke some really curly questions around the role of the law intruding into private spaces, intruding into private lives, what can we and can we not consent to? I think that diversity of experience, both in the law and in the criminal law and in the range of cases that you see in the places that you’ve practiced, must serve you well in talking about this kind of topic. |
00:13:40 | MG: | Well, I can say with some force, I think, David, having practiced both in the UK and now in New South Wales, that there is this grappling that the judiciary have. How far should the law go in terms of encroaching into people’s personal lives? And there’s a case that we’ll get to later in our chat that sheds light on this conundrum that the judiciary have had. And there’s a bit of frustration there in the sense of, I can’t speak for all the judges, but the overriding feeling I get is that they are looking to policymakers, i.e. legislators, to fix what they perceive to be this area of law, criminal law, moving at such a pace that it’s very difficult for the courts on a case by case basis to keep up. And that’s happening, of course, because Russell, which we’re going to dive into soon, was a case where legislation had come in, which, in effect, blocked any non-medical practitioner from performing these types of surgical procedures that Mr. Russell was engaged in at the time. Even though that wasn’t in force at the time of the Russell case, the Justices in the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal did say it doesn’t matter that it wasn’t in force because you look behind what the law was trying to achieve and it was really rogue medical practitioners, such as Mr. Russell, with no medical qualifications performing these very delicate, sensitive medical procedures, and their argument, I think, which I support, was it’s really a matter of common sense that the law would intervene there. |
00:15:22 | DT: | Yeah. |
00:15:22 | MG: | And to protect people. |
00:15:24 | DT: | And I think it’s going to be interesting how often this idea of common sense being a guide for judges, for practitioners, is going to come up in our conversation today. Let’s talk about Russell v R. We’ll talk about some of the earlier cases that define the boundaries here, Brown, which is a UK case, Coney, but let’s talk about Russell – that’s the case that’s brought us into the recording room today. Let’s start with the facts of that case. |
00:15:50 | MG: | Okay, so Mr. Russell was convicted on three counts of an indictment, all which related to procedures performed by Mr. Russell when conducting trade as an extreme body modification artist in the Newcastle region of New South Wales. The trial judge sentenced Mr. Russell to 10 years imprisonment with a non-parole period of 7 years and 6 months. As we know, David, that sentence was reduced on appeal, but dealing with the charges that Mr. Russell faced; so count one was one count of what’s called female genital mutilation, and this involved a labiaplasty procedure performed on the 5th of January, 2015 by Mr. Russell on a victim who was known as AA in the court case. That was done with AA’s consent for cosmetic purposes, and in that procedure he partially excised her labia minora. |
00:16:48 | DT: | Yeah, and that’s the charge in relation to which there is now a specific offence under the Crimes Act section… |
00:16:54 | MG: | 45(1). |
00:16:55 | DT: | … 45(1). |
00:16:56 | MG: | Yeah, yep. TIP: Okay, so we just talked about a charge of female genital mutilation in the case of Russell v R. In examining the court’s ruling on this case, it’s helpful to understand the broader context of the offence of female genital mutilation and how it came to be a specific and discrete offence under the law. According to the World Health Organisation, female genital mutilation affects an estimated 200 million women and girls globally. Each year, it’s estimated that 5 million women and girls have been affected by female genital mutilation, which amounts to 8,000 people every day, or one person every three minutes. So this is a huge problem worldwide. It’s important to note that the reasons for this practice vary widely, and although it’s often associated with religious or cultural traditions, the issue of female genital mutilation is a global issue, and it’s not limited to any particular nation or faith. In fact, using figures from the 2018 Australian Census, the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare released a report in 2019 suggesting that there’s about 53,000 women and girls living in Australia who’ve been affected by female genital mutilation. In 1994, the Family Law Council in Australia released a report on female genital mutilation, recommending that legislation be enacted to make it a criminal offence and classify it as a form of child abuse under Australian child protection laws. Today, it’s a criminal offence under state based laws in every state and territory in Australia. In New South Wales, as we’ve just mentioned, it’s now specifically prohibited under section 45 of the NSW Crimes Act. It states that a person must not excise, infibulate or mutilate the whole or any part of the labia minora, the labia majora, or the clitoris of any person, nor aid, abet, counsel or procure another person to perform any of those acts. It’s also illegal for a person to take a girl out of NSW or arrange for someone else to do so with the intention of having female genital mutilation performed on her. Anyone found guilty of this offence can face a prison sentence of up to 21 years. Now, the data suggests that this is rarely reported to authorities. According to available NSW police force data, between 1998 and 2014, so a 16 year period, there have only been 3 incidents of female genital mutilation resulting in charges, totaling 10 individuals charged. There are some defences available under section 45(3), including cases where medical practitioners are performing procedures that are otherwise defined as female genital mutilation for medically necessary reasons. Notably though, there’s no definition provided on what might be considered medically necessary. As Michael says in this episode, that’s best left to expert evidence and what a medical practitioner might say is medically necessary in the circumstances. So I think during the debate that we’re going to have to explain what arguments were put up by both sides, which I’m happy to do, but you’re quite right. So that charge of female genital mutilation is now enshrined in section 45 of the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) but Mr. Russell faced another charge, David, and that was one count of grievous bodily harm with intent, and this concerned what’s known as an abdominoplasty, or tummy tuck procedure, and that was performed on, again, another female victim known as BB in the court case, but it involved removing skin from BB’s abdominal area. Again, conducted with BB’s consent, and that procedure, so that’s count two, the grievous bodily harm, resulted in adverse health outcomes, which required emergency corrective surgery, and it left BB with significant scarring. |
00:20:25 | DT: | And we should be clear here, Mr. Russell was a, as you said, extreme body modification artist, not a medical practitioner, not a plastic surgeon, because if a listener’s hearing a tummy tuck, a labiaplasty, these are procedures that in certain circumstances can be performed lawfully by medical practitioners but Mr. Russell effectively, well, for lack of a better term, I suppose graduated to performing these procedures from piercings and tattoos. |
00:20:56 | MG: | That’s correct. What’s interesting, David, is, and we don’t have the time or the scope to do a deep dive here today, but we’ll put a link on, if we can, at the end of this, to the District Court decision, the decision at first instance, the trial was a judge alone trial undertaken by District Court Judge Syme, as she was then. And the judgement is well worth reading for any law student or junior lawyer as to how Her Honour navigated, particularly count two; the grievous bodily harm, which the remarks on sentence that Her Honour produced was really the catalyst for the argument that the Director of Public Prosecution, Sally Dowling, when she prosecuted the case in the Court of Appeal, it was really the trial judge had got it right at first instance and it’s well worth having a look at that District Court decision, which I think is public record, because I had a look at it this morning, so it is public record, to get a really good understanding of what Mr. Russell was doing, you quite properly and succinctly captured his progression from a tattoo artist and a piercing artist to, in effect, removing parts of people’s bodies, again, without any medical training or any medical assistance, support. He clearly wasn’t medically qualified, which the Act obviously covers as well. |
00:22:20 | DT: | Yeah. So the offence that now exists does contain an exception or a defence under section 45(3)(a). |
00:22:28 | MG: | Yeah. |
00:22:28 | DT: | Which provides that it is not an offence if the person conducting the procedure is a medical practitioner and the procedure is deemed medically necessary. Is that correct? |
00:22:40 | MG: | That’s correct, yeah. They could be called exceptions or defences and you quite properly, David, have flagged section 45(3). I’ll just quickly go through these because they may be of interest to our listeners. So, we’re still dealing with the section, section 45(3). Before I just jump to the exceptions and defences, it’s probably worth noticing that Mr. Russell faced three charges. The third count was one of, again, we don’t have the time today to go into it – this case threw up so many movable parts in law, it’s really hard to capture them all in a podcast lasting an hour – but count three in short was a manslaughter charge and due to complications in a procedure that Mr. Russell had conducted, again on another female victim, the victim died of sepsis and there was the issue in relation to that count, which we’re not covering today, but in short was whether he owed a duty of care to that victim. And so what happened was, as we know, Mr. Russell was convicted and he ended up appealing that decision but before we get to the appeal and what arguments were advanced for both sides, the defence and prosecution, I’ll just quickly return to section 45(3), and section 45(3) of the Crimes Act says it’s not an offence against this section “to perform a surgical operation if that operation is necessary for the health of the person on whom it is performed and is performed by a medical practitioner or is performed on a person in labour or who has just given birth and for medical purposes connected with that labour or birth by a medical practitioner or authorised professional.” So you can see the terms being used here, medical purposes, medical practitioner and lastly, is a sexual reassignment procedure and is performed again by a medical practitioner. |
00:24:38 | DT: | Yeah. |
00:24:39 | MG: | So those are the exceptions under section 45(3), and what section 45(4) states is that in determining whether an operation is necessary for the health of a person, only matters relevant to the medical welfare of the person are to be taken into account. |
00:24:56 | DT: | And so again, in the case we’re discussing Russell, the offence didn’t exist at the time of that case, but I suppose, were you prosecuting this tomorrow, to be satisfied that that exception applied or that defence was available, it would be a matter for expert evidence. |
00:25:12 | MG: | Yeah, certainly. I’m not a medical practitioner and these cosmetic procedures, there seems to be more and more being performed. You read about body modification procedures advancing all the time and so if a similar case was to come across my desk at the DPP, and I was the briefed Crown Prosecutor, yes, I agree with you, I think the first thing I would call for is some medical expert opinion under section 79 of the Evidence Act, to explain to the court and to explain to me, this advancing complex area and again, the necessity to have these procedures. Is it purely cosmetic or is there actually an underlying health reason? |
00:26:00 | DT: | Yeah, because that’s what I was wondering about, in that you do hear about an increasing prevalence of elective cosmetic surgeries, including labiaplasty, how that sits alongside a provision like this. |
00:26:14 | MG: | It’s a really good question. And the short answer is, I think we would have to both be informed as to where it fits in, by assistance from a medical expert or medical practitioner. TIP: Section 79 of the Evidence Act is perhaps better known as the expert evidence rule. It provides an exception to the inadmissibility of opinion evidence where that opinion is based on specialised knowledge based on the person’s training, study or experience and the opinion that they provide is based wholly or substantially on that specialised knowledge. For example, this might include a medical practitioner providing an opinion on what they believe is medically necessary under section 45 but again, that has to be based on their particular specialised knowledge, so a neurologist’s opinion on whether heart bypass surgery is necessary wouldn’t cut it. Section 79 and the scope of specialised knowledge based on training, study, or experience, was considered by the Court of Criminal Appeal in R v A2. In that case, the trial judge had originally admitted evidence of a Dr. X under section 79. This evidence was based on sociological studies of a traditional practice of a community in India, but the Court of Criminal Appeal ruled that that opinion was speculative and not actually based on any area of specialised knowledge held by the expert, and found that evidence to be inadmissible. R v A2 was appealed to the High Court, but that particular ruling was not. |
00:27:32 | DT: | Now again, let’s return to Russell, because I suppose section 45 deals with a particular instance of grievous bodily harm particular legislative response to that category of grievous bodily harm, and the argument that it might be consented to by the victim, but Russell deals with, if you like, the broader common law position concerning consent and grievous bodily harm which, at least theoretically, we should be able to apply as these procedures and practices and body modification choices that people are making, continue to evolve at this rapid pace. So let’s start with count one. What were the submissions made in Russell about that first count? |
00:28:15 | MG: | Well, the arguments advanced by the defence team in the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal in Russell, Mark Tedeschi KC who led Catherine Newman for Mr. Russell in that case. His argument was, and this is a good lesson for aspiring lawyers and even dinosaurs like me to the degree of brevity being so important when it comes to written submissions and oral submissions, because Mr. Tedeschi’s whole argument was on the reading down of section 45(1) as the Justices in the High Court case of A2 had determined in that matter. Now, what Mr. Tedeschi and Catherine Newman advanced on behalf of Mr. Russell was that concerning the constraint of section 45(1), it turned entirely on the High Court’s decision in A2 and in that case, the majority of the High Court referred to the purpose of section 45(1) as being for the benefit and protection of children, which the CCA observed was unsurprising given that case involved children between six and eight in age. However, – there’s always a however, isn’t there? – however, while the question of the scope of section 45(1) and the meaning of another person and on another person form no part of the ratio decidendi in A2, what was said in an unqualified language as to the purpose of section 45 amounted to seriously considered dicta. This dictated that section 45(1) should be read down by reference to what the majority of the High Court said, and that culminated in count one, the FGM count, being quashed. So, just to break that down into bite sized chunks, the argument by the defence team, in Russell in the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal was a really narrow argument and that was really, if you are strictly applying the Interpretation Act to this particular piece of legislation, then it’s clear that the legislation is restrained or simply captures children and it doesn’t apply in this case because Mr. Russell’s victim in count one was an adult female. And so what the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal did was to look at the decision of A2, and as you’re aware, David, we have a sort of precedent system here, High Court, in short, trumps the Court of Criminal Appeal. And I must say, having looked at the reasoning multiple times in preparation for our podcast, but also as a result of the article being published and people generally wanting to talk about this interesting case, it’s still, to me, a slight surprise that the Court of Criminal Appeal here in New South Wales decided to follow that precedent in A2, the High Court, on the grounds of purpose, what they did say, that is the Justices in the appeal in Russell, was that but for the A2 decision and what flowed from A2, they would have allowed, in effect, Sally Dowling’s the Director of Public Prosecution’s, the arguments. The Justices in the CCA said that her arguments would have been allowed in other words… |
00:31:48 | DT: | Would have been upheld. |
00:31:49 | MG: | … would have been upheld. It’s an interesting dynamic when you consider the facts of Russell, being body modifications from an unqualified medical practitioner on an adult, and then you look at the factual background in A2 and then you go back to the actual wording of section 45(1) which talks about another person. |
00:32:11 | DT: | Makes no reference to children. |
00:32:12 | MG: | No. And so that was really the significant argument, which I thought was a very cogent argument, with respect, put forward by the Director, that it’s clear in 2023 that this procedure would be equally applicable to female adults, not just restricted to children or ritualistic purpose, which I must say is slightly surprising, but precedent is precedent and the Interpretation Act, the strict interpretation was followed, hence why Mr. Russell was successful with count one. |
00:32:49 | DT: | But not so with counts two and three. |
00:32:52 | MG: | No, that’s correct. So we’ve already discussed, briefly, count three, which was the manslaughter count where it was found that Mr. Russell owed a duty of care to his victim in relation to the medical procedures performed on that victim. It’s more complex than that. I would urge your listeners to go back to the judgement because the Justices on count three provide a very helpful summary of the principles involved when it comes to negligence, criminal negligence, duty of care situations in the medical realm, I suppose. So we haven’t got scope today, sadly, to do a deep dive on count three, but count two, you’re quite right, was successful on behalf of the Director in terms of the appeal being refused. So, in that, as I understand it, the arguments advanced by Mr. Tedeschi in the Court of Criminal Appeal was that the procedure that Mr. Russell undertook on the victim was with her consent, and again, with amazing brevity, Mr. Tedeschi argued that it was with her consent, therefore, why should Mr. Russell be prosecuted? |
00:34:19 | DT: | It was almost a sort of jurisprudential argument in that Mr. Tedeschi relied on Perre v Apand, which is a civil law case, a negligence case in support of the general proposition that the state, the legislature, should not interfere in arrangements or dealings between private people with their full and informed consent, subject to the legislature making a law to the contrary. |
00:34:43 | MG: | Yeah, you’ve captured it in a nutshell, the arguments that Mr. Tedeschi and his junior Catherine Newman advanced in the Court of Criminal Appeal. TIP: Okay, so we’ve just mentioned the case of Perre v Apand. The full citation for that one is Perre v Apand (1999) 198 CLR 180 for those playing at home. Now in that case the High Court of Australia was tasked with determining whether Apand Pty Ltd, a manufacturer of potato chips – yum – owed duty of care to potato farmers, including the Perre family, who suffered economic loss as a result of Apand’s actions. Basically Apand had sold an infected batch of potato seed to the Sparnons, a neighbouring farm to the Perres, which led to an outbreak of bacterial wilt on that neighbouring farm. Now, due to some Western Australian laws in place at the time, any farms within a 20 kilometre radius of an infected property were also banned from exporting potatoes from Western Australia for five years. Now, the Perres, their farm fell within this radius of neighbouring farms to the farm affected by the bacterial wilt, so they lost their ability to sell potatoes in Western Australia, which was a highly profitable market. Now, in determining whether a duty of care was owed, the court underscored the importance of not overly encroaching into personal and private arrangements, especially where individuals act with full knowledge and informed consent. The majority of the judges emphasised the value of individual autonomy in commercial and personal dealings, rejecting rigid frameworks or strict tests for identifying new duties of care. For example, Chief Justice Gleeson dismissed concepts like proximity, fairness, or reliance, as used in previous cases in England, to avoid overly restrictive approaches to establishing duties of care. Justice Gummow similarly rejected incremental tests that might unduly limit the use of flexibility in considering novel cases. Instead, the judges looked at the individual circumstances of this case, examined contextual factors like Apand’s knowledge of the risk posed to nearby farmers and the inability of the Perres to protect themselves. Justice Callinan highlighted the physical proximity of the parties, but ultimately stressed that any duty imposed on Apand should not unreasonably restrict its commercial autonomy. So the judgements showed a nuanced use of both proximity, like geographic closeness and knowledge, and policy considerations, like concerns about indeterminate liability and commercial autonomy. Justice McHugh’s approach in the judgement illustrated an incremental analysis of relevant past cases, focusing on factors like plaintiff vulnerability and the defendant’s knowledge, while warning against imposing duties that would unreasonably hinder the defendant’s autonomy. The net result from all of these individual judgements was an outcome that favoured a balanced, flexible approach that respects personal and commercial autonomy and resists imposing burdensome duties, where informed private dealings between parties can adequately address risks. Hopefully that explains why Mr. Tedeschi cited a commercial equity dispute in a criminal law matter involving grievous bodily harm. In short, it was advanced by Mr. Tedeschi that consent to the infliction of bodily harm, even of a serious kind, falling within the ambit of grievous bodily harm, should be permitted unless overridden by statute. So that was Mr. Russell’s argument. I must say, if you trawl through the historical cases, which you and I will hopefully get to discuss some of the more interesting cases in this area, which hopefully we can provide a link to, David, in due course, a link to the article that I prepared for the New South Wales Bar Association. |
00:38:11 | DT: | Yeah. Absolutely. We’ll have the link to the autumn 2024 edition of Bar News in the show notes for this episode. |
00:38:17 | MG: | That will capture then, some of these interesting cases that the Court of Criminal Appeal in Russell went through. And I must say, and no disrespect to Mark Tedeschi, who is an amazing criminal lawyer, it’s just that the weight of history was against him when it comes to this particular argument that he was trying to advance on behalf of Mr. Russell. And the Director’s argument was that, as I said earlier, when you look at the District Court decision, the remarks on sentence by Judge Syme, what Sally Dowling said in the Court of Criminal Appeal was that the Director submitted that as the trial judge directed herself under the common law of Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom, a person cannot consent to the infliction of grievous bodily harm other than in certain exceptional instances, which did not apply, nor was the present case analogous to any accepted exception, the common law recognises that “personal bodily autonomy is not an absolute value in the law.” And that quote there Justice Michael McHugh recognised that in a modern society, perhaps the law shouldn’t encroach fully into people’s personal lives and there should be a degree of autonomy but the caveat to that quote was that it’s not an absolute value in the law. So even then, in my opinion of Justice McHugh’s judgement of there being somewhat more of a liberal approach, there was still a caveat that things such as go back a step, procedures undertaken by the likes of Mr. Russell would never fall into the pocket of personal autonomy. |
00:40:06 | DT: | That’s right. And Justice McHugh’s comments in Perre v Apand were made in a civil matter concerning an action in negligence. Some of the cases that we referred to at the top of the episode, which as you say, the weight of history was against Mr. Tedeschi there. R v Brown, which is a case that I think even if you never went on to practice criminal law, the facts stay with you from law school because they’re quite lurid. |
00:40:29 | MG: | I think it makes everyone who reads it, wince at the factual background. |
00:40:32 | DT: | Yes. Yeah. It’s hard not to. |
00:40:34 | MG: | Part of that case, of course, was again, the interface between what is public policy, what is in the interests of the public, as opposed to two consenting men in their own home doing things to themselves in a sexual way, which to be clear, I think, I have not read the case for quite some time, but when I said it makes you wince, I think it involved nailing each other’s penises to a table or a piece of wood. |
00:41:04 | DT: | Yeah, that’s the part I remember. |
00:41:05 | MG: | Yeah, I think that’s the part that everyone remembers. |
00:41:07 | DT: | I don’t think anyone can forget that. |
00:41:09 | MG: | Everyone remembers the snail in the bottle. |
00:41:11 | DT: | Yeah. |
00:41:12 | MG: | And I think everyone remembers some of the factual background to the case of Brown. Quite a seminal decision from the UK. And in this case of Russell, the Justices heavily relied upon the reasoning and dicta from that authority, which is back in 1984 now, as being still good law when it comes to how far the criminal courts or the criminal justice system globally should encroach into everyday people’s lives. TIP: So we just mentioned the well known English case of R v Brown that was a 1994 UK case, and as Michael just noted, that case might be distinctly remembered by a lot of law students for the, well, peculiar detail involving the consensual nailing of penises to wooden boards. That case involved five men who participated in consensual sadomasochistic sexual activities leading to physical harm, including actual bodily harm. None of the participants complained about the acts, but they were discovered during an unrelated police investigation. Despite their consent, all of the appellants were convicted under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, the relevant legislation in the UK, as the trial judge ruled that consent was not a valid defence to causing actual bodily harm. The appellants sought to challenge this, arguing that consent should exempt them from conviction, especially since their activities were, as they said, analogous to legally accepted practices like tattooing and body piercing. The question before the House of Lords was whether the prosecution had to prove a lack of consent when harm was caused during sadomasochistic encounters. In a 3-2 majority decision, so a very narrow split decision, the Lords ruled that consent would not be a defence to charges under section 20 and 47 of the 1861 Act, which cover wounding and causing actual bodily harm. Lord Templeman argued that society has a duty to protect itself against violence, stating that deriving pleasure from pain is evil and that such acts were unpredictable and degrading. Lord Jauncey supported this view, emphasising that bodily harm without good reason is unlawful regardless of consent. He noted that sadomasochistic acts, especially when recorded on video, posed risks of moral corruption and lacked a justifiable purpose beyond sexual gratification. Both Lords concluded that it was not in the public interest to allow such acts to be considered lawful, and Lord Lowry agreed with them, arguing that the appellants’ claim seeking exemption from legal provisions meant to prevent harm was untenable. He also dismissed the appellant’s argument relying on the European Convention on Human Rights, stating that there was no human right to engage in acts that inevitably caused bodily harm. Now some legal scholars have criticised this judgement that relies upon concepts like moral corruption and the dangers of sadomasochism, with some calling it paternalistic and restrictive, critics argue that the law unfairly criminalises consensual acts between adults, while other plainly harmful activities like binge drinking or smoking aren’t punished similarly. There’s clearly an inconsistency between certain acts being lawful and Lord Jauncey’s statement that bodily harm without good reason is unlawful regardless of consent. There is also some ongoing debate about whether other harmful practices, like non-therapeutic cosmetic surgery, should be treated similarly under the law. Nonetheless, the ruling in R v Brown has remained influential in shaping legal perspectives on consent and bodily harm in actual bodily harm and grievous bodily harm cases. It’s interesting, again, and I’d encourage our listeners, David, to have a look at the cases that I’ve cited in the article that I undertook for the New South Wales Bar Association and I cover off, I think, most of the leading case law from the common law jurisdictions in the article with, as I said in the article, just quickly, the cases considered were factually illuminating, and in a very quick run through, some included consenting to bare knuckle prize fighting in England, a bar fight gone horribly wrong in Canada, and an exorcism performed in New Zealand. |
00:45:01 | DT: | Now that’s the one that we don’t have time to go through it today, but I am going to go and read it after this. |
00:45:06 | MG: | Well, New Zealand sort of came around, not at odds with Brown. So the dissenting judgement in Brown was by Lord Mustill. And again, In short, Lord Mustill said, in that you can’t have a situation where violence is inflicted upon another, where the criminal courts would get involved. Now, the classic, I think, that we think about, and again, this is now being restrained by legislation, is lawful coercion. So, I can remember a time, sadly, where there was corporal punishment in schools and so teachers would strap you, a strap taken out of a drawer, and some people were given what was described then as six of the best, your hands would be outside, and it sounds really draconian now, doesn’t it? And the cane, the cane on the backside, that was a common one in schools in the UK, and I think in Australia too, and that’s been outlawed. |
00:46:04 | DT: | Yeah. |
00:46:04 | MG: | And then you have sporting situations as well. So a boxing match, for example, is a classic example of the law stepping back. This is now an affiliated boxing match. I’m not talking about the two prize fighters. |
00:46:16 | DT: | The bare knuckle brawlers in Coney. |
00:46:17 | MG: | Yeah, so the law will intervene. I mean, subject to obviously areas such as self defence and that sort of thing, but that for me has a common sense element to it, because if you’re in the habit of having a few drinks on a Friday night and someone looks at you the wrong way, you perceive them to look at you in the wrong way, and your immediate reaction is to start a fight, and there’s no comeback to that because it’s just a fight, and the fight is with consent, let’s not forget that word because if I say to you, David, “let’s sort this out outside” and you say, “yes, Michael, let’s sort it out outside.” And I ended up landing a blow on your nose that breaks your nose and clearly I think common sense is what I’m getting at here is that you couldn’t have a situation where even if you said, “right, let’s sort this out outside” that I would never be prosecuted. Self defence might have a role to play in any future criminal prosecution, but certainly consent wouldn’t apply there. I’m trying to think of other examples, modern examples, which probably weren’t around at the time of Brown, Coney, and the like, where the law has moved on. I’m thinking now of domestic violence cases, and again, this could be material for another day but certainly the law regarding domestic violence is moving on foot to capture what previously wouldn’t be charged, acts, certain choking, strangulation, that type of offence, there can’t be any consent to that in a domestic violence setting. As Denning remarked, the law moves fast and you have to move fast to catch up with it sometimes and I think the law is trying to do its best here. The case law, I think now on this area is settled, as settled as it can be, the Justices in Russell left no room for doubt that Mr. Tedeschi’s valiant argument on whether consent applied to grievous bodily harm in the factual setting of Mr. Russell’s case just would never apply. He could never rely on that consent, and he could never use, in short, a public policy argument that the female consented, she knew full well what was happening. The problem for Mr. Russell, we keep circling back to this, is that he wasn’t medically qualified and look, would it be a different situation if it’d been a registered clinic and something went wrong in the procedure? It’s a moot point, but probably not criminal interference there, maybe more of a civil negligence claim rather than the criminal law being burdened, but who knows? |
00:48:45 | DT: | Yeah. Well, particularly given some of the terms that the defence under section 45 is couched in medical necessity. |
00:48:52 | MG: | Yeah. |
00:48:52 | DT: | And what precisely that means in a cosmetic or an elective context. |
00:48:56 | MG: | I was trying to work this out in terms of the exceptions that we covered earlier under section 45(3) in the sense of because we have to come back to what section 45(1) is about, and it’s about female genital mutilation. So then the exceptions applying to medical procedure, I could see something occurring during childbirth where something went wrong during the childbirth and the labia was injured in that situation but it’s really hard to pinpoint when you’re dealing specifically with section 45(1) where the exceptions might apply but they’ve been inserted there and the law that they apply, if they ever came up in terms of defences or exceptions and that’s how section 45 has evolved. |
00:49:43 | DT: | It strikes me that we have this interesting bifurcation, maybe for lack of a better term, in the law in this area, so far as it concerns consent and assaults generally, in that we have, as you say, a hard and fast rule for consent to grievous bodily harm, which is that notwithstanding the valiant attempt put up by Mr. Tedeschi in Russell, it doesn’t seem like there’s any room to move there and that position at common law is well settled. There are also specific statutory interventions that exclude or make clear that consent is not available for particular kinds of grievous bodily harm, like section 45, and like some of the others that may not rise to the level of grievous bodily harm, but which you’ve described, like choking offences. |
00:50:25 | MG: | And that area of law is evolving very quickly, even as we speak, there’s coercive control laws recently in force in New South Wales. Domestic violence quite properly now is being addressed by not only the criminal justice system where I operate, but also at a political level too, and so we will see these two areas evolving even more, I suspect. And again, just I always try and take a step back, and this is something I was guided by many moons ago when I was a law student, whether it’s a problem or whether you’re looking at a brief in chambers, which I do most days, is you just take a step back and try and look at it from a common sense point of view and would anyone really argue that in terms of domestic violence, which on anyone’s reckoning is spiraling out of control in Australia and other Commonwealth countries, that politicians trying to bring laws in to try and curtail the level of domestic violence. I’m not talking now about murders, the murder count for domestic violence, predominantly male on female violence is really sad. The figures are shocking. And so, of course, one might say, and I support this view, that this is an area where politicians and the legislators should get involved in. |
00:51:46 | DT: | Yeah. |
00:51:47 | MG: | For the wider good of the community is really what I’m saying here. |
00:51:50 | DT: | And your earlier example around coercive control, I think, is a great one because the common law prohibition on consent as a defence to grievous bodily harm is limited to grievous bodily harm. It is possible to consent to a common assault, as I understand it, it is possible to consent to an assault occasioning actual bodily harm, but those coercive control offences, which don’t need to rise to the level of a common assault, they can be satisfied without conduct that might rise to the level of an assault, it is not possible to consent to those offences and of course not because it would be a pretty perverse outcome if it were possible for an abuser exercising coercive control over their victim to coerce them into consenting to the very conduct that’s complained of. |
00:52:37 | MG: | And I think the law in this area is, as I said earlier, evolving fast and rapidly and addressing those very issues that you’ve just raised, David. So I think most people listening would probably agree that if we’re talking about how far the law should encroach into people’s everyday lives in relation to this issue of consent now, and its applicability to whether it’s what you do in your home with your partner consenting in a sexual way, or whether it’s going to an unregistered person to ask for a medical procedure to be performed, or you just simply want to have a fight with someone outside the local pub this Friday night. I think, again, common sense should be the dictating principle that we follow here as to why the law is, I won’t say encroaching, but why the law is involving itself in these everyday situations, the criminal law that is. |
00:53:34 | DT: | Yeah because as I was saying before, we have these two tracks or this bifurcation where we have pinpoint interventions by the legislature, appropriate ones, as we’ve said to address specific policy concerns but then we have the broader, the flexible, but the less clear common law prohibitions. Well, certainly clear concerning grievous bodily harm, but we’re left to draw our own conclusions about specific facts in specific cases, especially where they don’t rise to the level of grievous bodily harm. Michael, do you think the right touchstone there, as criminal lawyers like yourself navigate both new legislation and the application of sometimes very well settled common law principles to new and novel factual scenarios, is common sense? Let the justice of the case be your guide and work backwards from there? |
00:54:21 | MG: | Yeah, I do. I do. I think there’s a calling for, as we’ve debated, common sense to be really the guiding principle in these situations and the situations that we’ve been debating is testament to that. That we both, I think, are on the same page, that in the examples given, that it is proper for the law to intervene there. I think it gets difficult when you’re dealing, probably at my level, of say, being a Crown Prosecutor and looking at a police brief as to the appropriate charges. I mean, this is a different argument, but what happens is that the police prepare a brief, just if listeners are not aware of how a criminal prosecution evolves, is that the police gather the evidence and prepare a brief, and then that’s served on us, the DPP, and if it’s assigned to me, I will then read the brief and then I’m asked to prepare a report in relation to the charges, and it’s at that stage, there’s a filter process, I’m assisted at this stage by a solicitor who has been assigned to the case and another lawyer who’s known as the managing solicitor for the purposes of charge certification. So between the three of us at this stage, we’re able to very quickly work out whether there’s reasonable prospects of success on charges. So it’s not a case of, every charge is brought, which would just completely consume the criminal courts, which wouldn’t be in the public interest or for the community for that matter. So we have a filtration system and that is assisted by the defence as well. So they have a huge voice in charge certification here in New South Wales as well and we have conferences with the defence where we put our position, they put their position, sometimes there’s a counter position and then we ask the Director to consider what is being proposed by way of whether we go to trial, or whether a plea will be accepted, or all of the above. So there is this inherent filtration system that we have, which I think when you have the knowledge of that, then it’s not a case of, well, one argument, I suppose, is the floodgates argument. If you allowed every physical situation to manifest itself in a court case, even though consent is given, then it would overwhelm the courts but there are filters in place. The police have their own filters. Then when it comes to my office, the Director of Public Prosecutions, and it’s not a filtering out of charges. It’s really just looking in detail at the evidence that we can present at a trial. |
00:57:06 | DT: | Yeah. |
00:57:06 | MG: | And then it’s not just our voice that’s heard in that process. The defence also have a real opportunity to shape the case by making submissions on behalf of their client. |
00:57:18 | DT: | It’s an important point of practice to make because these difficult questions grappling with this morning around social mores, what is acceptable within the confines of one’s home, what we can consent to the extent to which the common law should intrude into our homes, the extent to which the legislature should make new laws that prohibit particular conduct, it’s a common mistake to make to assume that all of this will always play out in a judgement but the reality is that many of these questions are decided by processes like the one that you’ve described, by the exercise of prosecutorial discretion, by representations made by defence and the legislation and the cases like Russell inform that process as much as they do a trial before a jury that results in a conviction or no. So that process by which charges are brought or not brought or negotiated to something else, that is as much informed by these evolving common law considerations as anything else. |
00:58:21 | MG: | And of course, again, just in terms of how things work at the coalface, so to speak, Mr. Russell appealed the decision, first instance, so the District Court decision as of right, so every person can appeal their decision, whether it be on the conviction or whether it’s on the sentence, you can appeal both, and so Mr. Russell exercised his legal right and brought the appeal. And of course, when we’re looking at the first count, which is under section 45(1), the Director’s argument, which I thought was a cogent argument advanced by Sally Dowling in that case of Russell, was that the law in A2 shouldn’t be read down, the purpose approach shouldn’t be applied, because in that case they were dealing with children, whereas in this case it was adults, and the section itself, if you look at it from a literal interpretation, says another person. So the filtration system there, that was always going to be advanced because there is real public policy and force with respect to the Director’s arguments in relation to count one, Mr. Tedeschi’s argument on count one was a different approach, it was simply, if you engage the Interpretation Act principles and look at what was said in A2 and important ruling was that this debate in A2 was, I think the phrase is seriously or serious decided dicta, which means ensuring it had been discussed, that was enough for the New South Wales CCA to apply A2 and as I said, like minds will differ, but I have a different view in relation to that and I’m sure your listeners may have a different view too but in relation to counts two and three, where the convictions were upheld by the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal, that is our system of law where Mr. Russell was allowed to bring quite properly an appeal and as we’ve not argued, but as we’ve debated on a philosophical level this morning, the arguments in relation to count two particularly were quite interesting arguments by both sides but in the end, I think the Justices encapsulated all the case law with common sense. |
01:00:46 | DT: | Yeah. |
01:00:46 | MG: | It’s common sense. |
01:00:47 | DT: | Yeah. |
01:00:48 | MG: | You can’t have a rogue, non-qualified medical practitioner who’s graduated from piercings to body parts removal and other medical procedures using consent as a defence when he’s left his victim with terrible scarring on her abdomen. So, I think the law got it right. I think the Justices got it right. |
01:01:13 | DT: | Yeah. Yeah. Let common sense be your guide, though, it’s easier said than done with the multitude of scenarios that were presented with in practice, and well, I guess it keeps things interesting for criminal lawyers like yourself. |
01:01:26 | MG: | Absolutely. We’ve not glossed over, but we briefly discussed and debated the emerging coercive control laws here in New South Wales and beyond. The law and legislators now heavily are taking domestic violence seriously in a way that I’ve not seen since I’ve been in Australia, and the way legislation and even last Friday, there were amendments to the Bail Act in terms of domestic violence offending and the monitoring of domestic violence alleged offenders. So, yes, the law in this area is still evolving and as you say, a lot of it is the public policy and in certain situations, I think you just can’t hold back good common sense principles if they’re for the benefit of the wider community, David. |
01:02:19 | DT: | Yeah, absolutely. Well, we’re nearly out of time, Michael. Before you go, I wanted to ask you a question for some of our listeners who are just starting out in their career in law, who are law students or recent graduates. As we talked about at the top of the episode, you’ve had experience breaking into the criminal law twice, really, once in the UK and once here. Do you have any advice for some of our listeners who might hope to do the same thing, because the criminal law is one of those areas that a lot of law students, a lot of young lawyers aspire to practice in. |
01:02:46 | MG: | They do, and look, it’s a great question. I’ll say this because we are running out of time, but the importance of mentors cannot be understated. I mean, I was lucky enough to count some real stars of the bar from numerous sets of chambers in the UK and Sydney, as well as some amazing solicitors who gave me encouragement and advice and most of us in the profession are keen to play it back to the next generation. Those of you starting your careers in the legal profession, I’d just say this: Good luck. Roll up your sleeves. Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Hustle. Do good and fear no one. |
01:03:28 | DT: | Great advice. I love it. Thanks very much, Michael, for joining me on Hearsay. |
01:03:31 | MG: | Thank you, David. Thanks for having me. |
01:03:48 | DT: | As always, you’ve been listening to Hearsay the Legal Podcast. I’d like to thank my guest today, Michael Gleeson, for coming on the show. Now, if you’re a criminal lawyer and you want to earn some more criminal law substantive points, check out our two episodes with criminal law experts, Helen Christinson and Damien Mahon. Those episodes are episode 73, called ‘Objection! Excluding Illegally or Improperly Obtained Evidence in Criminal Proceedings’, and episode 103, called ‘The Lives of Others: When is a Conversation in a Public Place a Private Conversation?’ If you’re an Australian legal practitioner, you can claim one Continuing Professional Development point for listening to this episode. Now, whether an activity entitles you to claim a CPD unit is self assessed, as you know, but we suggest this episode entitles you to claim a substantive law point. For more information on claiming and tracking your points on hearsay, please head to our website. Hearsay the Legal Podcast is brought to you by Lext Australia, a legal technology company that makes the law easier to access and easier to practice, including your CPD. Before you go, I’d like to ask you a favour. If you like Hearsay the Legal Podcast, please leave us a Google review. It helps other listeners to find us and that keeps us in business. Thanks for listening and I’ll see you on the next episode of Hearsay. |
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