Breaking Down Barriers: Maintaining People Skills and Your Psychological Safety in the Face of Discomfort

Effective leadership increasingly hinders on trust, psychological safety, and strong people skills. Both advising clients and managing your team internally requires you to create space for honest conversations.

Learning great people skills and effective leadership techniques can help you to build rapport, inspire confidence, and lead with clarity and care both internally and externally. And not only do you need to identify discomfort and push through it, but you need the tools to be able to respond skillfully in the face of these challenges wherever they arise.

• Psychological safety in the workplace is defined by individuals feeling secure enough to express their authentic selves, which is essential for fostering innovation and full engagement.
• Research and practical leadership experience indicate that a safe environment enhances team trust and engagement, leading to greater overall contributions from team members.
• In Ivana’s experience, the legal community is expressing strong interest in topics surrounding personal development, people skills, and psychological safety and wellbeing in the workplace.
• Further, the rise of AI seems to be prompting awareness that while technology advances, the need to retain effective interpersonal skills remains imperative for success.
• Today’s topic, discomfort, is a common experience across various professions, affecting lawyers at different career stages and individuals from other fields, often stemming from fears of failure and social judgment.

• For Ivana, overcoming discomfort begins with transforming one’s internal narrative, particularly the self-doubt that can arise when facing challenges.
• By reframing thoughts from “I can’t do this” to “I can’t do this yet,” individuals can foster a mindset that encourages perseverance and growth.
• Try and identify your motivations for overcoming discomfort, as embracing challenges can unlock opportunities and potential that lie beyond these barriers.
• Ivana identifies an important intersection between psychological safety and the acceptance of mistakes.
• While errors are inherent to progress, lawyers, in particular, must employ risk mitigation strategies akin to “building a parachute.” This involves adopting a mindset that allows for gradual exposure to challenges with supportive measures to ensure that mistakes become manageable learning opportunities rather than catastrophic failures.
• Ivana suggests that addressing discomfort through “micro discomfort drills” can effectively help individuals navigate challenges beyond the fear of making mistakes, such as public speaking.
• By intentionally pushing oneself to engage in small, manageable discomforts, one can progressively build confidence and resilience that translates to larger challenges.
• Leadership also plays a crucial role in fostering psychological safety within a team, as it is not only about implementing strategies but also about demonstrating consistent and authentic behaviour in everyday interactions.
• To build trust within a team, Ivana suggests leaders model vulnerability by openly communicating their personal commitments, such as attending family events, while fostering an environment where team members feel comfortable prioritising their own obligations without guilt.
• Similarly, Ivana suggests leaders openly acknowledge their mistakes or areas for improvement, and their action plan to use these as opportunities for growth, to create an environment of trust where team members feel comfortable addressing their own challenges.

Ghaleb, BDS 2025, Effect of Error Culture and Learning Organization Principles on Performance Enhancement Strategies within Organizations, International Journal of Multidisciplinary Approach Research and Science, 3(3), pp. 1075-1100.

Brené Brown, ‘Clear Is Kind. Unclear Is Unkind.’, blog post published online October 15, 2018. 

On today’s episode of Hearsay, we’re going to explore how to move through discomfort with intention, resilience, and clarity. Lawyers and business leaders alike regularly face situations that stretch their confidence, challenge their assumptions, and push them into some unfamiliar territory.

But thriving in a demanding profession like the law, requires more than technical legal expertise. It demands the ability to transform that fear, that discomfort into fuel. And the legal profession has pretty high stakes. Effective leadership increasingly hinders on trust, psychological safety, and strong people skills. Both advising clients and managing your team internally requires you to create space for honest conversations.

Learning great people skills and effective leadership techniques can help you to build rapport, inspire confidence, and lead with clarity and care both internally and externally. And not only do you need to identify discomfort and push through it, but you need the tools to be able to respond skillfully in the face of these challenges wherever they arise.

Our guest today to help us talk through these topics is Ivana Kovacevic, multi-award winning group general counsel, board director, keynote speaker, MC, and mentor. Alongside her distinguished legal career, Ivana recently delivered two interesting sessions titled Strategy for Pushing Through Discomfort and Leadership, Grounded in Trust, Psychological Safety, and People Skills, and we’re gonna be talking about much of the content of those sessions today. Ivana offers practical tools to help individuals reframe fear, take action, and build a sustainable support network. And today we’re gonna dive deeper into those tools, unpacking how they apply to lawyers specifically, and exploring why discomfort can actually be a catalyst, and also how to strengthen people’s skills and what your team’s performance saw as a result.

Ivana, thank you so much for joining me on Hearsay.

And so these two topics were the hot topics that came first, essentially pushing through discomfort. And so turning fear into fuel was like the number one by far. And then the two other topics were psychological safety and people skills. So I did two sessions, but three topics. And d I think the interest in the second one, in the people skills and psychological safety, I think that also comes from AI being so popular nowadays. So I think there is a lot of information out there now, and people are asking a lot of questions about ai, but they’re also realizing now that the thing you can’t replace is the people skills. So I think some of the interest in people skills is this renewed focus on, “hey, we need to get better at this so that we can still flourish.”

So there was an interactive element to the sessions and I think it surprised me that that was such a key takeaway for people. Although that was intended, because I do think people get most out of it when they’re engaged. And it’s also a really good way to get the message to land. So if they can relate it to themselves. And I think what facilitated that safety was that in the sessions, each tool was followed by a story, a personal story of you know, I’m not just telling you there’s this nice little thing that you should do, but this is how it landed for me. And there were times when like that landed badly for me. So like it’s learning from the good things and the bad things. And I think that gives people permission to recognize themselves. It just makes a lot more impact if it’s anchored in a story that makes sense to them.

So I think that the starting step, I think in all of my sessions, the first thing I’ll ask is why? Why over here? Because that’s the motivation. Like you need to anchor to something to then want to do whatever’s coming next. So I think the reason you want to change is a lot more important than staying safe. So, to me it starts with changing how you think about discomfort. So I think discomfort starts with an inner voice that tells you, I can’t do this. Can I do this? I can’t do this. I don’t know how to do this. This is too scary. So quite a lot of getting through it. Step one in what I had in my session is reframing that. So I can’t do this. And the fact is like what you tell yourself is the thing that you listen to, not what someone else tells you, but what you believe. So there are a few reframes and, what I’ll do is I’ll maybe tell you two of them and use one of them to tell your story, which was your question. So, key reframes and there are many more, but let’s start with two.

Here is what you wanna be telling yourself when you catch yourself saying, I can’t do this, just add one word. I can’t do this yet. And so that is awfully powerful because what you’re telling yourself is, but I can learn, essentially you’re saying, yes, I can if I just try. And there are things you can do to try. And so the example I’ll give you maybe along those lines is. If you are scared of something. So if something is scary, a personal example is of how you can turn something scary into excitement. So that too is a reframe. And so the personal story for me is I used to really hate public speaking. Like as a lawyer, if you have, you know, a scale of one to 10, you love public speaking on 10, you hate it. At one I was like, minus 10, I was off the charts. This is not my thing. And based on science, you actually find out that your body reacts the same way.

Whether you’re scared, whether you’re excited, your heartbeat goes up, your palms get sweaty, your breathing gets more shallow. Your face might get flushed. Your body doesn’t know the difference.  So the trick is to start, if you like. Planting the seed in your own head that this is not fear. This is exciting now. Now if you just do that at face value, that doesn’t work takes time. You’re planting the seed for that to cash in later. But what you also need to do is actually find something that excites you about it. So it’s no good me saying this is exciting if I don’t believe it.

So if it is fear of public speaking or it could be anything else, is the thing. What your big, exciting thing can be is just getting on top of the fear. So doing it. Then coming out the other side is extremely rewarding. So that could be your excitement and that’s an excellent thing that you can do. For me personally, I kind of went a step further to help myself to shift the focus from, oh my God, I’m going up, everyone’s watching me, I’m gonna make a mistake.

So shifting, it’s all me to shift the focus to the audience. So to me, I started to think, well, what does the audience want to think? What’s of use to them? And so the motivator, the exciting thing for me became how can I be of service? So that is a reframe. One other example of a reframe, there are more, but we don’t have enough time and a personal story to take you through that.

So part of, to me, pushing through this comfort what I teach people is, you shift your mindset in many different ways. Two of which we discussed. But the second part is what I call build a parachute. Meaning don’t make stupid mistakes. Like you’re not gonna go to the top of a building and jump without a parachute. Because that would just be stupid, right? You’ll get a parachute, you’ll do things to mitigate that mistake. So in a similar way, even as lawyers, we can embrace mistakes, but we can do things in advance. We’re very good at assessing risks. So there’s a second tool bag of what you can do to make those risks more palatable. And so they involve things like, well, don’t go from never speaking to speaking for an hour in front of a thousand people, because that’s just silly. Like, break it down, chunk it down, seek help. So some of the things you can do to reduce the risk is to be prepared to have less risk, but also plan for things that might go badly in advance. So that not only prepares you so that you don’t make the mistakes, but also so you have confidence that you can do it. So even if we go back to the person who is talking, which is not a risky thing in the way that you’re talking about with lawyers, but it’s an example that we can easily apply. So if it is someone who is presenting for the first time, well, what are the things that can go wrong? So you might if it’s a presentation to the board, right. It might be you get tough questions that you don’t know the answer to. You can prepare for possible questions. You can also prepare to confidently say, “I don’t know, but I’ll get back to you.” Like without fuffing through and getting flustered. That you can prepare in advance and be comfortable.

What if you freeze? If it’s your first public speaking thing, well, maybe you take a sip of water, have a water. Give yourself five seconds to regroup or take a deep breath to center yourself. Or if your IT equipment doesn’t work on the day, like again, are you gonna be a frazzled mess because you’re like, oh my God, my slides and this? Or are you just gonna think in advance if this happens, this is how I’m gonna get through it. So there is a range of things you can be doing to mitigate your mistake upfront. That I think is like the second part to all of this. But psychological safety I think absolutely comes into this. But they go hand in hand as you’ve mentioned.

And so I think the tip I would give people then generally in situations like that, is micro discomfort drills. So find little moments and push yourself constantly beyond your comfort zone in small, safe ways. The idea here being that every time you do that, every time you say to yourself, you’re gonna do that, identify it and then do it. You are actually telling yourself, your Inner voice becomes, I can do this because I’ve done it many times. And then by the time something big happens, you’re like, I can do this. And then a good example, because you asked for examples before, is if you went to a legal conference and you walk into a room of, 300 people, you know no one, and you feel uncomfortable, you’re like, oh my God, I’m just gonna stand here. Do I go chat with people? Like, it’s just uncomfortable. I would give myself, “Ivana, you’re gonna meet at least five new people today.” And so you are giving yourself this safe discomfort, know, what’s the worst thing that can happen? And also you’re giving yourself a task. I’ve now gone from being in my head to actually having a thing to do, so off I go.

So if there’s one thing I think that I said to people in the session that you take out of this, it’s these micro discomfort drills that I think are really good because then you can apply that to any aspect of your life.

And I think give them stretch assignments, but set them up to succeed, not to fail. So again, you wouldn’t give them, so it’s applying the same strategies. You wouldn’t give them a huge leap. You’d give them steps up. You’d give them the ability to come and consult you. So another key strategy is to tap into people who’ve been there before. Ask them questions and make sure that they’re surrounded by people who do support them. And they’re gonna be the cheer squad. And even if it’s not me, say, that the people wanna reach out to, but if I’m just giving advice to someone who’s not on my team, it’s to find people that you trust who have been through it, who you can ask a question. And quite often people sometimes hold back because they’re like, “well, again, I’m uncomfortable doing that because I don’t know them.” And another strategy that helps people in this space is we tend to catastrophize. So we think the worst possible thing can happen if you do whatever the discomfort is.

And so what I will do to people, depending on what it is, is actually ask them to write down, to think about what is the worst thing that can happen. And quite often it’s nowhere near as bad as what you might think. So if it is just go and who could you ask? Who has been through this? I can’t possibly, I don’t know them. What’s the worst thing that can happen? They say no or they ignore your question. It’s not a really big risk to take. So this is a perfect micro discomfort drill. But also, I think in reality, nine out of 10 people will actually be really glad to help.

So it’s a range of these techniques, but also supporting your team, which kind of goes into trust and psychological safety, but it’s looking after your team, finding out what they want and being there for them in a way that they trust you and that you’re giving them opportunities to grow.

So studies will tell you that the number one thing that you need for a successful team, the key differentiator is psychological safety. So without that, you just don’t have a high performing team. And this is irrespective of how good the individual people on the team are, how long they’ve been at the company.You need that trust and psychological safety first. And what happens when you get that right, is the outcome follows for the business. So better results follow you. People are more engaged. You’re coming up with more ideas. And back to that topic of making mistakes, let’s tie that again. I mean, there’s so much overlap but a lot of companies realise, especially in the tech space, that you don’t become inventive and come up with new things unless you make mistakes along the way. So some companies will actually outright say, “unless you are making X number of mistakes, you’re just not trying hard enough.” So they actually encourage mistakes. So that the mistakes lead to innovation, lead to better business results. It’s not just fluffy unicorns.  We are actually talking about business results. The benefit, like it’s a perfect win-win, I think.

TIP:

So Ivana’s right and the stats back her up. Australian data shows that psychologically safe, learning‑oriented workplaces are linked to higher productivity, innovation and better business outcomes. Research synthesised for Australian workplaces frames psychological safety (comfort to speak up, admit not knowing, and make mistakes) as a direct driver of:

•  Increased innovation and error detection, because people raise problems early and suggest improvements; and
• Higher engagement, discretionary effort, and meeting productivity, with some sources reporting productivity gains up to ~22% where psychological safety improves. 

Australian guidance and commentary emphasise that when mistakes are treated as learning opportunities, organisations see low psychological safety and “fear of mistakes” correlate with rising psychological injury claims, longer absences, and significantly higher claim costs. According to Safework, this contributes to the $6b+ annual productivity cost to Australian businesses.

​Teams with higher psychological safety report better learning, collaboration, and adaptability, which is associated with measurable productivity and innovation gains and encouraging employees to surface and learn from mistakes supports continuous improvement and reduces downstream failure costs (rework, complaints, remediation).

So, watch yourself in the little moments, meaning be consistent. If you’re gonna say certain things, like don’t just give the company slogan of we are good because we do this. Apply that in practice. So this is where you build trust or kill it. Be consistent and if you as a leader make a mistake. Own up to it. So I think some of the key things you could be doing, I think to instill psychological safety, a lot of it comes down to people skills and how you treat people generally, whether they feel trust. And so one of my sessions is on that, but specifically on psychological safety, I would say being vulnerable yourself is hugely normalizing the fact that. Not doing things right yourself is okay. And how you treat mistakes. So back to mistakes. If mistakes are a total failure, and if that’s how you’re treated with your team, not gonna build trust. If you use mistakes as an opportunity to grow and learn, then your team feels more comfortable putting their hand up when they do something wrong.

So you as a leader, could be modeling this behaviour and saying, “look, I know I am very bad at blah, blah, whatever it is. I go to meetings and I talk too much and I don’t stick to the agenda.” Like, that’s a simple thing, right? But you are letting your team know that you are okay about things you’re not good at. I would add to that, tell people what you’re gonna do about it. don’t, just end with, “I suck.”

So you’re normalising with your team that equally, if they have, it doesn’t have to be a kid related thing, whatever their commitment is, that they can take that time off and not feel guilty. So, I think that it is very important. Leader vulnerability has a huge impact on the rest of the team.

That’s the first point. And then you build on that. There’s influencer collaboration and all sorts of things. And I think just taking this further, when I think of communication. I actually always break it down into its constituent parts. And I think most people, when they think of communication, they think of talking first. That’s the first thing that pops to mind. And I pause and actually go, “no, if you wanna be better at communicating, I want you to talk less and listen more.”

So this is the undervalued, underrated, huge impact skill. So what I do is I talk about listening first before I get to talking. Both are important, but listening is so incredibly important and we just skip over that

And I think if you listen really well, you have the ability to uncover what’s really going on. Whether it’s for people on your team, whether it’s them telling you what they need, that’s how you know what problems to actually solve for reading the room.

What is not being said, what is being said? What’s the tone? Are people uncomfortable? Like you can tell if people are scared to put their hand up and say things, you can see that in how they’re behaving so that you can address that. But I think when it comes to listening, also a big tip again, is follow through. Don’t just say “I’m bad at something” and you stop equally. If you’ve asked a question and taken the time to listen, then follow up with whatever was done. If you’ve asked someone and they’ve actually gone, “great, I’ll tell you what I think” and you do nothing, you shouldn’t have asked. So I think it’s, again, follow through. Each point is an opportunity.

And then I would go to, okay, well then let’s talk about actually speaking. Because that too is really important. You can unite teams, give them a common vision, and I think what happens in the absence of good speaking, good communication, but speaking side is that you’ll have people in a vacuum who don’t quite know what’s going on. Resentment and issues can linger and fester. People become scared depending on what’s going on. So you just get a culture that is the opposite of “we are gonna collaborate well.”

But back to your question, your culture is your immediate circle. Quite often companies will have overarching principles that you are all trying to anchor into, but I do agree that quite a lot of it depends on the leader that you are working with as well.

I also take issue with the idea of these being soft skills because I think both of those techniques listening and actively communicating are to some degree technical skills in the law. We have particular methods of speaking and making ourselves understood that are technical, that are unique to the environment that we use them in. We have particular ways of listening that are unique to the environment that we use them in. There is a technical skill to listening to a witness and deciding do I believe this? Is this consistent with what else I know about these facts?

And I think the misuse of some of those technical communication skills can be productive of a lack of psychological safety, using the same approach to communicating that you use with the other side when negotiating or with a witness when you’re cross-examining them to speak to your junior lawyers, for example. These context switches can be hard, right? But also, I really just wanna echo that point about listening being such an important communication skill.

We keep coming back to this idea around mistakes. It touches every topic we’re talking about today. And it returns to this idea about being comfortable with discomfort because an environment in which you aren’t listening and you’re not seen to be listening, is again, not an environment where people are likely to tell you about the sort of thing that you might want to address before it gets too far.

In my sessions, I don’t talk about difficult conversations because you’ve predetermined that it’s gonna be difficult. So I call them courageous conversations in my sessions because again, you’re catastrophizing the worst possible thing that can happen. Whereas in fact, what you need to be is just courageous. Just step into that and then the tips to actually do it.

The very first one I would give is; to be clear is to be kind. Meaning, you were saying this misconception is there that you just need to be kind. And so actually, if you are a fan of Brené Brown, she’ll talk in her book – and she’s a renowned leadership author – she’ll say that the very first hire she made, the first company she set up, or someone who wasn’t very good, turned out, wasn’t very good. So she thought she needed to be kind. To be kind “I just won’t tell them anything,” until it got so bad that she ended up just firing the person. And so the person in the moment then said to her, “why didn’t you tell me? Because you’ve robbed me of the opportunity to get better.” And so the penny dropped and she’s like, “well correct. To be kind, I actually need to be clear. I need to be telling you.”

TIP:

So Ivana just mentioned Brené Brown. Brené Brown is an American academic, researcher and podcaster and, as Ivana said, is known for her influential work on leadership. She holds the Huffington Foundation–Brené Brown Endowed Chair at the University of Houston’s Graduate College of Social Work and is a visiting professor of management at the University of Texas at Austin. She has written six number-one New York Times bestselling books and hosts two podcasts.

In her leadership research, Brown often highlights a recurring pattern she calls an “unkind story.” Brown wrote a blog post on this in 2018 called ‘Clear is Kind. Unclear is Unkind’.

In that blog post, she discusses how leaders frequently avoid clear conversations about expectations because they want to appear polite or kind. Yet, when expectations are not made explicit and a colleague later fails to deliver, the leader may hold them accountable or blame them. Brown argues this dynamic is fundamentally unkind. Her core lesson is to be clear is kind, unclear is unkind because clarity builds trust, accountability and healthier workplace relationships.

Don’t soften the message because you’re uncomfortable. Like, actually stay factual. “This is what happened. This is the impact.” But then the next big challenge that we all have is. People usually don’t like feedback because they’re going to the threat, “ooh I need to go into defensive mode. This is a threat.” And you wanna switch that from the threat mode into an opportunity.

So your challenge is not what you say, but how you say it. So if it is someone on your team, it doesn’t matter if it’s on your team or not, but let’s say it is on your team, let’s say it’s feedback. You wanna create an environment where you are on their side, you know that they can do this. You are there to help them. And so this becomes a “oh, okay,” then “it’s an opportunity for me to learn rather than to feel defensive.” And so Adam Grant, who is another, renowned leadership author, he has a 19 word phrase that he will use along these lines. But essentially it’s, “I’m giving you this feedback because I have high expectations of you, but I know you can achieve it.” So however you chop and change, the idea that “you can do this. I’m here with you.”

TIP:

So Ivana also just mentioned Adam Grant. Adam Grant is an American organisational psychologist, bestselling author and professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. Known for research on work, motivation and generosity.

Adam Grant popularised a simple feedback approach built around a 19-word sentence, first discussed in a Big Think segment on feedback, Grant describes a 19‑word sentence to make people more receptive to criticism: “I’m giving you these comments because I have high expectations and I’m confident you can reach them.” 

Grant argues that society places too much emphasis on natural talent and starting ability, often overlooking how much people can grow with effort, coaching and feedback. Grant highlights that potential is not fixed. Because people frequently underestimate both their own potential and that of others, leaders play a crucial role in helping individuals grow.

Grant explains that many leaders fall into one of two ineffective roles: cheerleaders or critics. Cheerleaders focus heavily on strengths, which can lead people to rely too much on what they already do well and neglect improvement. Critics, on the other hand, concentrate on flaws, which can discourage people and cause them to doubt their abilities. The most effective leaders act as coaches. Coaches balance encouragement with honest feedback and help people to recognise both strengths and weaknesses while maintaining confidence in their capacity to improve.

Delivering feedback effectively is central to this coaching role. Grant stresses that feedback should be given in real time rather than saved for formal performance reviews, which often makes criticism feel sudden and unfair. He also argues that the common “feedback sandwich” is ineffective because anxious people ignore the praise while confident people remember only the compliments.

Instead, leaders should clearly separate praise from constructive criticism and focus on specific behaviors that can change rather than judging a person’s character. Most importantly, Grant’s 19-word phrase signals support rather than attack. By emphasising belief in someone’s potential, the feedback becomes an act of coaching rather than judgement, making it easier for people to accept difficult truths and focus on growth.

Probably the last tip I would give is if you’re on the receiving end of this, you now know that the biggest threat is that you’re gonna see the feedback coming as a threat. So you need to flip that into an opportunity and curiosity.

So the name of the game here is Be Curious. Don’t take it personally, which is easier said than done, I know. But if you can see it as a gift. It could be something that is obvious to everybody else around you. Just not you. What a gift that someone’s actually having the courage to tell you something, whether you later agree with that or not, that’s up to you.

You get to process it, but someone’s come over and told you what they think it’s an opportunity. And the other thing you could be doing to again, model good behavior is normalize it. So if you’ve received bad feedback, back to our examples of mistakes popping up as a leader, you could be saying, “guys, I got this feedback. I am not so good at whatever, again, this is what I’m gonna do about it.” And then keep people informed. So normalize the fact that to get better at things you go through mistakes to get better, that is in fact the only way that you succeed.

TIP:

So David just mentioned a practice in Japanese workplaces that he called a “banishment room’. Now, he wasn’t making it up. In Japan, they call it (追い出し部屋, oidashibeya) or “banishment room” or sometimes “window sitter” roles.

A banishment room is a practice where an employee is moved to a department or space and given meaningless or no work, often excluded from meetings and normal team activity. The underlying aim is to make the person so bored, humiliated or purposeless that they resign “voluntarily,” avoiding a formal dismissal.

​Japanese large firms historically emphasised lifetime employment and it is relatively difficult both culturally and legally to fire regular employees. To sidestep layoffs and some legal/face‑saving issues, some companies created these boredom or expulsion rooms as an exit‑management tactic.

A related practice is making someone a “window sitter” (madogiwazoku): they still sit at a desk, may be paid and present, but receive no real tasks or invitations to meetings. Being frozen out in this way is the “subtle hint” to leave, but in context it is usually very clear to the employee and colleagues what is happening.

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